I still don't buy the "evil" theory, because I think it makes it easy for us to stop looking for answers to the human condition-"Oh, he was an evil, sick f*ck. Done. When's American Idol coming on?"

Though I myself use the term when looking at sociopaths like Bundy, but the difference there is someone who clearly got his rocks off from causing pain and killing and who had no intention of stopping, ever. He would no more have killed himself after a killing than monkeys would have flown out of his butt. Not to mention he was apparently charming as all get out. Like Albert Brooks says in Broadcast News, the devil isn't going to appear with a forked tail and horns- he's going to be goodlooking.

Anyway, I'm no medical professional, lord knows, but I really find it hard to believe this kid had anything resembling a grip on reality. And I find it hard to label that level of mental illness evil.

Slate's take on it:
http://www.slate.com/id/2164757/

The fact is that if Congress can do all it can to strengthen the background check etc etc, but guns can still be obtained illegally. We've discussed the state of Mental Health Care ad infinitum...and there needs to be much done there(as I'm sure Somer would agree). I personally think hollows should be restricted at the least. One concern I have about CCW permits is that you're mostly likely in danger when in public(as opposed to the home) but I can't see everybody carrying...this isn't the Old West!

Scuds you make good arguements and then you go with this regional BS that ruins everything. You had a man in mild mannered San Diego rip apart 21 people in a McDonald's. You think California is immune to crazy people going off and killing people. He had a frkn Uzi in your great state.

We have a black guy go nuts in Maryland and surrounding areas and pick off people. Get real.

Its sad but we are gun obssessed. Japan had 53 total deaths last year by guns. And almost all of those attributed to a right wing mafia. It does not happen on the streets. Not ONE accidental shooting.

We probably have 53 deaths by guns a year in the city I live in and Japan has 53 all year... Definite cultural difference.

Yeah,Pgardn,but don't they have a thing about swords?? What about those stats,huh?:eek:

Obviously,there must be an evolution of sorts,and the lack of medication contributed to this quagmire.

Their violent murder deaths are not even close to the state I live in. Guess you were kidding. There are clearly cultural differences and we are clearly a violent society. Have to start right there if anything is to be solved.

Now Japan does have a very large number of suicides comparable to ours.

And in South Korea this incident was all over the newspapers. The citizens were in shock and ashamed. The basic jist I got from the South Korean side was, "Holy Cow, say it aint so, we cant be like them". This was a National humiliation to them. Its like the whole country took it as their fault, its quite amazing. Again, cultural differences. It appears that some Asian socities take responsibility very seriously.

You could fit 3 Japans into Texas and still have room for the Northeastern Seaboard! Yes, I was kidding....and I knew about suicide rate,but I didn't want to be accused of "piling on":)

I understand he was not technically a citizen, but the kid had lived here since he was what, 8 years old? If I was a South Korean, I'd be feeling that hey, the US had him for 16 years and SK had him for 8- he's all the US's. South Korea has nothing to worry about in that respect...

i think arguing about using hollow points vs other bullets really doesn't matter. you get hit in the right spot, type of bullet doesn't mean squat. also, as small a calibre as a .22 is, people seem surprised at the damage it can do--reagan damn near died after getting hit by a .22 bullet, those go in and ping pong all over your body, ripping everything inside....

look, fact remains, if someone wants to do some damage, they're going to. this stuff will continue to happen. we can only make it as difficult as possible for those who have lost their right (due to criminality, insanity) to buy a gun to somehow get one. those caught selling guns illegally should be prosecuted to the nth degree! anyone who has some mental defect should be reported-they should be flagged if they try to buy, just like anyone who gets a restraining order on them, or those who are charged or convicted for domestic violence, stalking, etc. after all, stalking is not a 'normal' behavior.

but by the same token, criminals aren't going to rush to rob someone, if they're not so sure you'd be an easy target. it's tricky, cops can't be everywhere, and people should have the right to defend themselves. no easy answers for sure.

I agree...it just that it is very hard to get a CCW in Cali! On the other hand..I'd rather be fined than dead!

Makes it all the more amazing because that excuse was not given. It was clearly we (S.Koreans) dont do this sort of thing. The country is completely stunned.
Now I will say that when a US jeep ran over a couple of Korean girls on accident they wanted us completely out of the country and the uproar was just as bad if not worse. They considered this a National crisis. When some black military men raped a Japanese girl, it was pretty clear by the stuff that came out that Japan is far more prejudiced towards blacks than Americans. The Japanese made it very clear that the rape was far worse than if a man of Japanese origin had done this. And the fact the rapists were from the US AND black... they were quite upset.

"Roughly one-fifth said they know someone who has been a victim of a crime involving firearms in recent years, with women, young people, minorities, city residents and low-income people among the likeliest. Of those, almost a quarter said they have considered acquiring a gun for themselves.

About one in three people said they already have a firearm, consistent with previous polling results. Men, whites and Southerners are the likeliest to own guns."


that's from another article i just read.....so, men, whites, and southerners (rural??) are most likely to OWN a gun, and also the least likely to have a crime committed against them....criminals know who the least likely to be protected are...after all, many cities ban gun ownership, so the criminals (who already break laws, so what will a gun law do?) know the chances of an urban dweller being able to defend himself is slim. thus, an easier target. police can't be everywhere.
glad i don't live in a city, and i never will. the right to defend oneself is a basic right, and it's been taken away, giving the edge to those who don't care about breaking one law while committing another.

I hope for their sakes that Lucinda Roy and the mental Health guy don't relive this nightmare forever. That would be a shame. Hindsight is always 20/20. A clear examination of all facets needs to be undertaken...for the present and the future

You just don't like the fact that some states have a lot more people in them with backward thinking about hollow points etc.DANZIG IS NO HILLBILLY,BUT SHE LIVES IN A HILLBILLY STATE,AND HER VIEWS ON HOLLOW POINTS ARE TOTALLY HILLBILLY. I mean,read that crap (below your post about me,)o.k.? She doesn't think the type of bullet is all that important.I am telling you that quite a few of these folks(probably 7-15 out of the over 30 that died ) would have survived this.She evidently doesn't care about it,or is ignoring it.If even one more survived,then it would have been worth restricting the hollow points.She is usually logical,but when guns enter into it....She just goes off, and loses it ,man.She just becomes another HILLBILLY type.Yea,we got nuts out here.All I am saying is some states have more than their share of people that favor stuff like this being allowed to be sold(hollow points.)I am talking about the attitudes of the majority of the people in these states.I am not talking about nuts that kill people.I am talking about these backward Hillbilly attitudes (like for instance,Hollow Points should be available for joe citizen to buy.) I am sorry,PGRDN,but there is a divide in thinking,and it is regional.

Ok Im gonna shock you here Scuds. I agree. But I also think is a rural v. urban thing.

So, 80 percent of people surveyed did not know anyone who had been the victim of a crime involving guns, and 75 percent of those who did know (of that 20 percent) still did not want a gun. So only 5 percent of the people surveyed considered getting one. Correct?

Did the article say how many of the guns involved in those crimes cited by the 20 percent had been acquired legally?

Devil's advocate, Danzig- I'm amazed that the majority of people who knew of a crime involving guns still didn't want one. Because they've seen what they can do, do you think?

How about we attack poverty and urban blight-- I have a strong suspicion that would do more to fight crime than anything else. Oh right, because conservatives feel if you're poor, you must deserve it and could get out of it if you really, really wanted to.

I'm thinking that maybe one can buy stuff like this.

actually gen, i think more education is the key to many of our ills,

and scuds, i'm not from arkansas, and not a hillbilly. once again you seem to want to get to the lowest common denominator. my contention is, at close range, it doesn't matter if you get shot with a .22, a .38, or an uzi--and that if you can't buy the GUN, what the hell does it matter the bullet--are you going to throw it?

and why does this once again have to become a partisan debate? and why reply TO ME about conservatives, i'm not one!

Oh great.

Here we go now.

no, i'm done with this. you try to have a conversation, but some want to resort to the same tired, trite phrases, or start with the name calling bs. tis a shame.

The bastardos.

What can I do to change your mind? :D

I'm going to throw up.

Oh goodie!

That's true, Danzig; you do tend to be pretty spread out over the political spectrum, but an opposition to gun restrictions tends to be associated with a conservative bent.

I think my frustration is that I agree with you, education and attacking the root causes of poverty would do a great deal towards combating gun violence, regardless of restrictions on guns. Where I get angry, and NOT at you personally; I feel bad you took it as a personal attack (though please tell me where I resorted to "name calling?" Unless you think being called "conservative" is being called a bad name? Tee hee) is that I feel the (generally) conservative attitude towards no restrictions on firearms carries no corresponding attempt to reduce gun violence- arm the rich so they can shoot the poor, so to speak, rather than trying to combat sources that lead to violence in the first place.

And I think the gun issue is very different in rural areas than it is in urban (as someone else said) and that it's hard to find a common ground because the circumstances are soooooo different.

GR: I realize that We are at the opposite ends of the spectum politically, but saying that Conservatives feel that "the poor" deserve it and could change their lives if they really really wanted to,AND,"arm the rich to shoot the poor" is totally an unfair projection on your part! I don't know anyone who feel that poor folks(or old or disabled) are in those situations out of choice! But there are many people who abuse the systems set into place for the care of the aforementioned groups(workmens comp scams including doctors who overbill State), Welfare recipients who work "under the table" for cash,etc etc.There are individuals who scam SSI and myriad other examples of people trying get something that's not theirs/for nothing. Secondly, I don't have knowledge of any rich guys riding around their gated communities doing "drive-bys" cuz they don't like the job the gardener did. There are home invasion robberies every day here in SoCal and it's primarily the wanta-haves taking it from the older folks and the weak. Car-jackings,road rage,and Gangs dot the landscape as well. In these situations, conservative/liberal doesn't come up at all. People should be able to defend themselves and their homes,and kids should be safe from guns and predators...at all costs!

Not getting into this again EXCEPT....we always hear about how the poor scam the system etc etc...Welfare Cadillac crap...frankly that offends me! What about all the White Collar crime that never gets prosecuted, rick folks scamming the poor out of what little they have? Some old white guy sitting in an office in a highrise somewhere can ruin more lives with the stroke of a pen (or a click of a mouse) than 1000 drivebys or 10,000 welfare cheats! It would be amusing if not so tragic when folks say, "I don't think folks are poor cause they want to be or are lazy BUT....look at all the bad stuff they do!" What hypocracy!!!

Tell that to the person who loses their loved one...

I agree with Timm.

To the person who loses a loved one, nothing can be worse and I by no means will belittle their suffering but my point TAKEN IN CONTEXT is real! Some corporate giant (read: old white guy) can ruin tens, even hundreds of thousands of lives with the stroke of a pen! As Bob Dylan once sang, "Steal a little and they call you a thief, steal a lot and they call you king".

That is not the gist of what I said ...and you know it! You still make it out about the rich vs the poor and that's unfortunate. You lose all efficacy when you draw the line between the 2 'cultures' if you will. Do you start with the premise that if someone is wealthy....then he must have cheated or got it through force?? You arbitrarilly make the wealthy to be the bad guys...that's just wrong. I'm living on a pension,and unable to work, but I don't begrudge any who make good with their endeavors and skills!

What does losing a loved one have to do with the topic? The coporate crap like Enron,Broadcomm etc doesn't happen every day.....and btw...Bob Dylan is a fool!

Never said it was personal Timm...I'm talking in general. Of course all rich folks aren't evil but neither are all poor folks lazy, dishonest etc. It's simply amusing when folks always start talking about welfare abuses etc instead of the real problems in this society. And...if you don't believe that there are indeed "two Americas", well, you are naive. Bottom line, with wealth comes power, and with power comes responsibility...the poor can't "fix" the problems of society and the rich sure haven't stepped up to do so!

The "corporate crap" isn't brought to light everyday...doesn't mean it doesn't occur. One or two sacrificial lambs doesn't stop corporate crime. Huge corporations that put profits above safety, human suffering, disease and death in fact does occur every day! If not, why are people dying of AIDS by the millions in Africa when there are drugs that could slow this? Why are people starving world-wide when there is food rotting in warehouses? I could go on for days...these are not simple problems and don't always have simple answers but the one thing that is true is that if the rich and powerful really put human life above profits, all could be dealt with!

I'm the one who said the "2 cultures",remember? All you have to do is open a paper out here...I am talking specifically. I specifically mentioned Doctors(rich) scamming the system....which affects the poor from getting their share because the money is gone! The burden to fix society isn't incumbent on the rich..it's the Govt. job to fix and run it efficiently.

Yeah, all those homeless Senators and Congressmen have really dropped the ball. Kidding aside, power comes from wealth.

Yeah,Somer,if you could get the Warlords in Africa to stop massacres,and an effective UN to force the safe distribution of food and drugs, and stop the jungle tribes from initiating their young men into manhood by raping them(Nat'l Geo) that'd be a start! You imply that the USA is the reason for all the evils. Evil men rule everywhere and their first and only duty is to prolong their stay in power. History is rife with those stories.