Yes, that's true - I wonder if he actually needs to beat his elders to win the Eclipse, anyway (if he wins the Jim Dandy/Travers), as long as he runs well. I think he belongs but I agree that Flower Alley is really good -not unbeatable, but certainly a tough, talented colt. I'm not going to make predictions and to clarify my other posts, I'm not predicting Bernardini will run the table or anything like that. He just floored me in the Withers and shocked me in the Preakness -I'm really looking forward to the summer/fall, and especially fall racing at Belmont. It doesn't get better than that.

I'm not sure how you can describe his Traver's as " awesome ". He stalked a horse that was going 1 1/4 miles off a four month layoff and beat Roman Ruler who couldn't get 1 1/4 on the back of a flatbed ( and isn't that terrific anyway ).

I happen to think last year's BC Classic was at best an ordinary group. Saint Liam was a fairly nice horse who was questionable at 1 1/4, and considering how well Suave ran while contesting the pace I have a lot of trouble projecting Flower Alley's performance as anything particularly special.

"Coolmore" has already done well, Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith have done very well.

Thunder Gulch
Left Bank
Adieu
Jburg

just to name a few

Hes certainly playing catch up to Lava Man right now.

Dinner in Louisville after the Cup. Loser pays, like to meet you anyway.

I don't see any St Liams this year though. Is FA at Ghostzapper level? No. But I think this older group is subpar.

I don't think Bernardini and Discreet Cat will race against each other, either. Godolphin has some questions as to how far DC wants to go - they think he'll be ok at 1 1/8 (not positive) but it's a huge ? after that. I can see DC going for the Woodward and Bernardini the Gold Cup......I hope they just stay healthy and make it that far

Adieu?

I think the others on that list just vomited seeing her included among them.

By they way, yes they have done well here, but I think the point was that those connections run a substantial majority of their best horses in Europe. If they raced them in the US instead I am quite sure they would be FAR more successful.

coolmore also had lion heart. dont think they'll go big time in the states like they are in ireland but they'll continur to give pletcher a good few horses a year.. their season is a little pear shaped at the mo. George injured, Horatio unfortunately gone! could be godolphins gain!

DING DING DING!! Rack Him as Rome would say. Post of the day.

Discreet Cat will race in the Dwyer and Haskell - more than likely, and Bernardini will go Jim Dandy and Travers....the Haskell and Travers are both the same weekend and I think Darley has a GREAT chance of winning both of them...the only scare I have right now is Sinister Minister if he is lone speed in the Haskell but horses like Sweetnorthernsaint can't beat Discreet Cat IMO..

As for the Travers, Bernardini will tower over those horses...Jazil, Bluegrass Cat, Sunriver and Steppenwolfer, etc. couldn't warm him up if they wanted to...somebody else will have to emerge late to be good enough to beat Bernardini..

I don't disagree, but my argument is more with your overall appraisal of Flower Alley, who I do NOT believe would have won 85% of the BC Classics with his performance there last fall. We have simply become accustomed recently to relatively mediocre performances from 3YOs, or " injury " shortened careers, but as far as I'm concerned Flower Alley would have gotten his head handed to him by the likes of Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Skip Away and Point Given just to name a few.

I will also believe he is back at a top level when I actually see it. I will not accept on faith that a horse that isn't ready to appear in June of his 4YO year is just being brought along slowly. There has to be a story and the only question is how serious it is.

The bottomline is that their money isn't a drop in the bucket compared to the Shiek's cash...not even close, but they're both loaded..

I'm not questioning that he had a setback. But a horse by Distorted Humor who has won a grade one would have been sent to stud had it been a career lessening injury. hes just too valuable and the owner/trainer are just too smart.

Wrong.

Discreet Cat is NOT running in the Dwyer and is being pointed to the Jim Dandy with Bernardini being pointed to the Haskell.

Joel but whose money has been smarter to this point?

Anything that MAY have gone wrong happened too late for him to go to stud this year so my guess is they are attempting to bring him back. I also believe there is a good chance they will but I also wonder just how effective he will be.

I am sure should there be anything seriously wrong they will not race him.

cunningham, the sheikhs are doing themselves any favors by bouycotting coolmore stallions, how are they supposed to challenge coolmore without their stallions. very bad move!

:eek:

85%??...Wow...doubt it...he wasn't even close to the best of his generation..Afleet Alex would have urinated on him (excuse my cajun)..he blossomed at year's end and finished nicely, but I don't give him that much credit..

I know Discreet Cat and Bernardini are more talented than Flower Alley....we'll see

Coolmore bought better mares and stallions. Also, Demi is the sharpest guy in any room when it comes to horseflesh. Hes so far above the rest that its not even funny.

I'll take that deal...Likewise, It'd be my pleasure to meet you..

I'd actually like to see Discreet Cat run more than one every 6 months, but thats just a personal perference.

Based on speed figures, and since Afleet Alex didn't race after the Belmont that is all we have, it is far from clear that Afleet Alex was better than the Flower Alley we saw in Saratoga and the BC. While I tend to agree that had he stayed healthy, and logically progressed, Afleet Alex would have been the better of the two, but at best that margin would have been minimal.

Don't even bother attempting to use the Derby as an example, as not only did Flower Alley improve immensely off his Derby performance, he also ran exceptionally well in that race. He was forced to make a suicidal premature move when Chavez sent him into a drive on the backstretch and then got caught behind the tiring Spanish Chesnut. His performance was clearly an indication of good things to come.

demi defo knows his stuff, gets coolmore on occasions multiple champs a year at decent prices, better than ferguson at his job. add to that, godolphin like to open their checkbook every year and try to purchase horses in training after good or average seasons. coolmore rarely do but are more successful at that too.

Source?..I've heard differently...

I don't think I was revealing a major piece of news. But my sources are many.

True, but money will prevail over the ong term...I've seen the trend move more and more towards Darley, especially this year....Coolmore runs a smarter operation because they understnd racing better than Darley does....Demi O'Byrne is a genius at picking out horses...unbelievable talent that guy has...he is a god and the brains behind that entire operation...he does a lot better than Ferguson with less resources.

The bottomline here is that Darley will ultimately pay more to be better....Coolmore actually has limits...Darley is the only irrational business in our industry that has no limits on what they will or can pay for a horse(s).

Demi has been told to me by several people with a good eye themselves to be the most amazing judge of horseflesh alive, and maybe ever.

Doesn't the Godolphin feud with Coolmore stem from what they perceive to be questionable business ethics involving the sales? Perhaps it also has to do with their aggressive breeding of their top stallions to in excess of 250 mares worldwide.

Joel.
Only when he drops the dream of having a Derby winner come from Dubai. I agree, if he ever decides I'm gonna hire Baffert, Pletcher, Mott, Dutrow, etc to just train my purchases then yes. But until then he wont surpass Coolmore. And matching Bin Suroor against Aidan is like matching me with Brad pitt in contest to pick up women. Neither I nor Saeed have a chance.

It goes two ways though...Coolmore won't buy any Elusive Qualities, future Bernardini's, Shamardals etc....Yes, Coolmore has great studs, but they don;t have Storm Cat...or A.P. Indy....or El Prado..or Awesome Again...or Ghostzapper...or Seeking the Gold...or Gone West...or Smarty Jones...or Empire Maker...or Dynaformer...get the point?

They'll survive because they'll by the best 'individuals' at auction by all non-Coolmore stallions...

Me too, but that means that he would be running more regularly than Flower Alley has this year, wouldn't it?

Afleet Alex > Flower Alley .........period

He raced a lot last year. Like i said, in heads up match gimme pletcher agaisnt suroor at 1-9. I'll lay it.

I can't argue that...

There's a sound argument.

I'm guessing you never tried that one on the debate team.

Yes it does, and I know for a fact that they are correct (without me getting further into it)...while Demi is a master horse evaluator, he is NOT a saint...

I know for a fact that The Green Monkey probably cost Coolmore only about half of that auction price...I'll leave it at that..

godolphin are upset that coolmore doesnt support their stallions (i.e, they dont buy their offspring) so godolphin did the same to coolmore. ironic considering their best horse last year was by a coolmore stallion!

I would be more careful about what I describe as a " fact ", and I think the actual price was more like 60-70%, but we're on the same page.

True, but any trainer is dangerous with goiod horses in his barn....look at Eoin Harty, who I think is an absolute joke as a trainer...might be a nice guy, but he merely masquerades as a horse trainer, yet that hasn't stopped Dubai Escapade....I love betting against Harty because the public will bet him down and he is a horrible horseman..