Coming within a length of winning the BCC I think you can't really say that he didn't get over the track well or that he wasn't the same horse he had been. Everything else you said I agree with.

The outcome wasn't the same as in previous weeks due mainly I believe to this being a full field of much more accomplished runners than he has faced in the past. You may not want to believe it but this is a big determining factor in the outcome. It was a learning experience for him. He never faced the type of adversity that he faced yesterday, thats all. He did so quite admirably. It seems that many just don't pay attention to the way races are run.

To be honest after watching him through the onset of the race I thought he was getting nothing, he gamed his way over a surface he didnt care for. If you watch the race again you can see Javier asking him to pick it up about half way down the back stretch. He either didnt like the going, or he was just flat. Either way that wasnt the same horse that trounced foes in his previous starts. Invasor is a nice horse, a very nice horse, but I think Bernardini is as advertised. I would love to see him come back for a 4 year old season. In my opinion he was up against it today, he was due to bounce, the field was full of talent, he was out of his element, and he was up against older. You combine that with what I saw as a general dislike for the surface and he ran pretty damn good.

he actually ran the same time as he did in the gold cup. difference was that the horses yesterday could hang with him, unlike those in his previous starts.
but i couldn't believe it when i saw the last half took them over 51 seconds to cover. that's pretty bad.

He may have ran the same time, but he didnt run the same race. He was never comfortable.

i guess not, he was probably wondering what all those other horses were doing around him!
if he ran his standard race, well it just wasn't good enough yesterday. the time of the race fits in with his previous efforts. i think we saw bernies usual race, it just wasn't the same outcome.

Danzig, If this races numbers come out like his previous I will be shocked. You didnt see his previous races, you saw a bounce, and a horse who disliked a surface. You also saw a very nice race by invasor, however Im putting the beyer at 104.


Revised. Tanner just posted and I pulled the PP of Bernardini. How can that number 115 be correct?

How can it be correct? Please refer to the many previous posts by myself and others regarding the way races are run and the effect of competition.
Bottom line is he did take to the track, he ran his race, an extraordinary race, and just lost to another very good horse. The only people puzzled by this or scratching their heads are the ones who annointed him before he was fully proven out. Anyone could see he was an exceptionally talented horse but some of us wanted to wait and see what happened when he ran against the best before assuming he was the greatest thing we've ever seen.

Jim, its not right, 108 for invasor 107 for Dini

Okay, but same thinking still applies despite the lower numbers for the entire field. The times and track condition were nothing if not unusual yesterday.

Does anybody think that; hypothetically speaking, the accident had not occured in Race 8 that maybe the outcome would have been different? Was Javier's head on right, 100%?

You realize they went over the track before the Distaff, right? I heard they scraped the top down, that would change the variant, and condition. Jim, I still do not think he handled the surface, among other things. I think he was in deep, due to bounce, but I didnt see a comfortable horse half way up the backside. Im not really even a huge fan of Dini, Im just being realistic with his excuses.

Undoubtedly Javy asked for his all out run a little too soon. I dont think it would have mattered, he wasnt the same. I think Invasor still passes, even if timed PERFECT.

no, i saw none of that. i didn't think he looked uncomfortable, esp when he made his move around the turn. uncomfortable horses that bounce and dislike the surface don't finish second in the bcc! he ran his race, but the comp he faced previously was nothing like yesterdays. tried and true veterans, bern the most lightly raced of the bunch.


i'd love to see him try again next year, unlike flower alley and others like him, i think bernie would be better than ever!!!!--along the lines of alysheba, hoty at four after losing the classic to ferdinand.
i'd like to see the top three from yesterday come back, but what are the odds of that happening??

I agree about Invasor getting by him no matter the timing of Javiers move.
This is the kind of racing experience that could give Bernardini the experience and foundation to even move forward from were he was, which is a scary prospect.

I just don't agree with giving him any excuses about a bounce or not holding the track, etc. They all ran on the same track and if Bernardini uses bounce as an excuse then I guess we'll have to also say that Invasor would have also performed better had he not been coming off such a long layoff and missing his last start with a fever.

Weren't you touting Mauralakana all week or was that someone else?

You're right though, I was out of line and am sorry for spazzing on you.

turns out they was wrong...
he's not all that & and bag of funyuns
Barbaro would have ended up being the better horse
I think he could have handled Invasor
but we know for sure about Bernardini, LMAO!!!

Through all this I was reminded of 1989, when Easy Goer was winning all those races in New York with the same sort of ease that Bernardini had this summer. After the Belmont, he won the Whitney, the Travers, the Woodward and the JCG Cup, which is a bigger and better list than Bernadini racked up. Tom Durkin proclaimed him New York's Horse of the Year. The East Coasters could NOT believe that their darling could be beaten again by that scrawny black thing from California, which had been run down in CA by Prized in a G1 at 10f since. Surprise, surprise, Sunday Silence beat Easy Goer again and Prized displayed his quality by winning the Turf over elders in his first turf outing.

you got it ..you called it congrats...dini moved to soon and invasor was game as they come..

absolute respect for invasor, I try not to compare two different horses from two different eras but just like you cashed in today, I was cashing in on Preakness !! when the world was riding on Barbaro(unfortunately i can never prove that Bernardini was better than Barbaro and neither can you). Im assuming Secretariat lost about five times, and at least once didnt hit the board. Greatness?? I would suggest Citation. Look up his career stats..

Exactly. It would take a super horse to justify 1.1-1 odds against that field. (I wasn't overly impressed with the field, but it still would require a hugely dominant fav to be 1.1-1.) Bernardini had not shown enough to justify those odds.

I tried to explain that to Pillow Pants, but he only encouraged me to bet more against Bernardini. ;>)

--Dunbar

As far as the excuses for Bernardini, too bad the dini-fans here can't be as gracious as Albertrani was after the race. He simply said that Invasor was a better horse yesterday.

--Dunbar

Im a huge dini fan, but no excuses, none!!! bad ride, bad post none of that.. he just got beat by a better horse

:rolleyes:

The only people I see being ungracious are those who start threads like this trying to taunt Bernardini fans (cause now he's a nag). On the other hand, I haven't seen one post from a Bernardini supporter that has not given credit to Invasor......

Invasor, hes the best!! Happy?? lol

all joking aside, kudos Invasor, down the stretch I was shouting go dini, go dini, no invasor, no invasor !!! Bleep, bleep, bleep, how the hell did this happen?? some more bleeps !!!

and that’s why I love horse racing !!!

no that wasn't me. i had an up and down day. i hit a nice exacta in the fmturf but not much else until the classic. i was down a little going into the classic......and came out up quite a bit.

i never said he was a nag. in fact i believe i described him as a "good horse" a few times throughout the thread. this thread is not about him being a bad horse, it is about him not being the horse that some overexcited bozos on this board had been telling us he was for months. if someone had the nerve to question this horse.....the bernmafia was all over them.....for months.
after he won one of his races over a small low-class field one of them started a thread entitled "barbaro who?" people compared him to secretariat. if you think this thread is "ungracious" well......good. those of us who correctly questioned this horse were not treated very graciously for the last 5 months. it seems the bernmafia is good at dishing it out....but has a little trouble taking it.

YOU mean the Bernmafia who were creating a ridiculous comparison that was nowhere near reality and should be feeling as stupid as stupid gets right now?
"He wants a target"
"He could go much faster, he was only under a handride"
"Hes gonna set the track record"

Blah, Glad thats over with.

Great horse, but not one tenth of what he was hyped to be, and now the Bernmafia can choke on it. I don't hear their big mouths now.

true mike ..did not see you around..,,,hope you crushed the cup...and i wont even go there about the trip and going out on a limb in saying the only other horse that figured was gonna win..to the original poster.. what happened to sun king..all all ect..

Seems like we have two schools of thought here....some people need to somehow brag about being right to vindicate themselves. Others seem willing to admit that they probably overrated Bernardini.

Gee, I wonder which group is more likely to win at the racetrack.

I understand why the original poster said what he/she said, it was true if you doubted this horse, there were tons of people calling you a hater. There were quotes of "my god, he's here the horse we have all been waiting for, he's here" and if you didn't drink the Kool-Aid you were an idiot. The arrogance that some put up here of how easily win the Classic was unreal and I think most of you paid for it, that's alright, there's something to learn from that. I thought he'd win, I gave him a 75% chance of winning, but I wasn't about to claim he was an all time great. He's very good, probably below Silver Charm, Tiznow, etc. but very good. He should win 3yo of the year, because of what he accomplished, but no one can honestly say that he would have beaten Barbaro more than 5 out of 10 times if they faced each other...I still say what I said earlier, he's one of the luckiest horses that I can think of in a long time, he won the Preakness, because of tragedy and the others were over the top, his Jim Dandy was a joke, and he beat a 3 legged horse in the Travers, I can't fault his JCGC, but it was a small field, but that's not his fault. I thought he was the most likely to win and thought he was talented, but also thought Invasior and Lava Man had a shot, so I was rewarded for not drinking the Bernardiniaid.

The chances of Invasor actually missing a race with a fever are almost non existant IMO. They knew he would run well fresh, and it didnt make any sense to showdown with Dini before the main objective, the Classic. They did a fantastic job getting him ready, but there is noway the horse ran a 116 beyer, period. He ran 108, which is still very good, but it still makes Dini's race a bounce or a surface he didnt favor. Anyone who has any eye for a horses locomotion can tell the horse was struggling getting over the ground going down the backside. Whether he took some kickback, or just wasnt handling the ground, something was wrong. He was facing better horses, but had he been the same Dini that ran 4 weeks prior.... he wins. Invasor ran huge, and hes the real deal, so is Dini. On both of their best days there is no telling who wins, Im sure nobody would mind owning, or racing either in their colors.

did he officially run a 116 or a 108? if it was the former, than it completely fits with everything these horses have been doing all year.

wait a minute...so not only is beyer off, this one time all year (of course none of those other, high beyers when bernardini won are wrong, just this one) but mcglaughlin is a liar as well? conspiracy theories galore.

It depends who you ask. My guys come up with 108 and they are the best in the business. Andy Beyers guys come up with 116, which I think is high. If the 116 is right, its Invasors highest number ever...... off 90 days. Not impossible, but I wouldnt think it probable. To me the 108 is more realistic.

Yes, believe it or not Beyer numbers arent ALWAYS what you see in the form. Guys who make the numbers realize this to be the truth. You would be amazed how many times Ive seen late money come in on horses with skewed beyers in the form. Of course I know the real numbers, but the general public doesnt have that information. What Im saying is the skewed horse will take all the action, while a horse with a hidden beyer takes all the late smart money. The legit figure wins the race, and the publics choice gets a hamsandwich.

I believe the Classic numbers are incorrect as published, yes. Infact I think half the card is wrong

Hooves I'm sorry I didn't get to see you. I had my best cup ever at the windows. Only guy I saw from the board was Stevie on Derby Day when he stopped by Lansdon's.
I was pretty busy from start to finish and just arrived home about 15 minutes ago.
I put out the Sun King thing long before he drew post 13 and they scraped the rail yet again.
Funny how you seem to forget the Balletto bet, which I did do and lucked into, but heped create my own luck by liking Round Pond. I didn't have net acess while I was there very much, only limited acess. I don't need to have to post my every action and move on this board to know what I did.
I joined in the conference via phone(I told Cajun what I thought and she typed it) and I spoke to GPK, Crown and Club, Bellamy Road the day of the cup and told em my thoughts.
I'll post my trip happenings later on, I'm exhausted right now.

This is classic stuff. I will have to read this one to Beyer personally.

If people knew the REAL truth about Beyer, and his dedication and belief in his numbers, posts of this ilk would be all the more hilarious.

Blackthroat, since your such good friends with those guys, who makes the numbers at CHD, they are horrible.

What track is CHD?

Besides, you have just claimed to know the inner workings at Beyer Associates, accusing them of purposely misleading the public. You obviously don't need me as a pipeline to anyone there and certainly aren't going to get any help from me.

CHD is Churchill downs. Blackthroat, there is no doubt in my mind the numbers are off, and have been off there on a regular basis.