Of course they took their money where they could bet it......that's why they're at the track.......to bet their money.......they couldn't bet their money on the P-5 yesterday........the betting public was unhappy,they didn't like it.
It's that simple.
And I didn't bait and switch anything,I'm just pointing out how the betting public reacts to a restricted wager..........in this case it's the restricted NYRA P-5.

Now that we are chomping at the bit when they open this up to everyone for Saratoga meet it will be a huge hit.

This is hilariously wrong.

This is one of the best things I've ever seen.

Thanks for posting this.

This is absolutely the critical point. The NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 is an effort (experiment) by NYRA to regain control of a single parimutuel pool that has been requested by bettors. When you are talking about NYRA races, pool size is not the issue, so we are seeing NYRA using their market leadership to gain exclusivity for a new bet.

To those without New York ADW or NYRA Bets access, this might seem like it is decreasing the pool size. However, it is really clear that NYRA has NOT taken this Late Pick-5 pool as just another revenue source. NYRA is strategically testing their ability to control the product - meaning owning the racing, the signal, and the mutuel pool.

While this might be "complicated", NYRA is doing something BRILLIANT to rebuild their wagering market.

If NYRA decided that the Late Pick 5 was an open pool across the board at Saratoga, the wagering dollars would flow and this discussion would be soon forgotten.

Instead, the test is being done during the closing two weeks to see whether NYRA's control of the pool - and possibly increasing the reach of NYRABets in the pre-Saratoga weeks at Belmont - could be a BUILDING strategy.

You might not realize it, but NYRA's decision is bold, opposite the trend, and looks to protect the wagering business.

Much of this discussion has been focused on the Late Pick-5 betting aspects and the feeling from many players that they are being excluded from this wager.

Ask yourself a couple of really basic questions.

[1] Do you think that NYRA staff does not understand that opening the Late Pick-5 pool would increase the handle? (Answer : Of course they know this. So, there must be a reason WHY they are willing for forego the short-term handle increase.)

[2] Do you think that the timing of the current NYRA-Bets only Pick-5 during the closing fortnight at Belmont is an accident with Saratoga opening on July 21st? (Answer : Of course this is not an accident, but a well-constructed experiment.)

Did not realize that Andy had already offered the same analysis on the previous page - apologies for the replay.

Respectfully Steve, this logic is such a stretch that even NYRA themselves hasn't reached this deep into the reasoning jar for it.


Remember in the winter when Andy made the extremely cogent and necessary criticism of the Pegasus purse structure? What if Gulfstream had said "Hey! Promoting this as a $12 million dollar race allows us to get on NBC and allows us to bring in more handle, HELPING DEVELOPMENT AND BACKSTRETCH EMPLOYEES?" Would that have been sound enough reasoning?

How about when Steve Crist (boy do we miss his voice) went right at Churchill Downs for the shameful siphoning of the Derby Day Pick 6 pool to build a pot for a jackpot bet? What if Churchill Downs came out and said "Hey! By building this jackpot pool, we will exponentially increase daily handle in a sagging bet, TRIGGERING CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS." Would that have been sound enough reasoning?

Everything is about dollars and cents and trying to sugar coat it with some altruistic idea about development and the backstretch is completely unfair and a benefit of the doubt the rest of the industry would not and should not get.

This is a promotion to draw customers to their ADW. Trying to present it as anything else is slap in the face, especially to people who have betting NYRA all their lives in PA, NJ etc.

I was referring to the benefits of the overall revenue that NYRA Bets generates.. not suggesting it as a justification for the promotion. However, I will reiterate that the platform provides more benefit to the industry by its' design than any other betting operation. And I acknowledged it's a provincial view, but as a stable, I'm involved in breeding and racing NY breds and have a vested interest.

As you said, they're trying to draw people to the platform. Despite the excluded jurisdictions, it's available to a vast majority of players. It's an imperfect concept.

It would be interesting to hear from Mr Allevato on ATR, ???

Good suggestion Benny. We has planned to do a segment at Saratoga last summer but ran out of time.

I can concur with that. It's an awesome bet that excludes players.

I've been thinking a lot about this and the TV programs.

I love it because I've played NY for 40 years. NY is over 25% (Maybe more) of the US handle for the year. Most of that is through ADW's or other tracks. NYRAets lets them take more of that handle as if it is on-track.

Does it help NY horsemen, absolutely. Does it help NYRA, yes too.

I think this is an ingenious plan, the more I think of it.

I can only speak for myself. I am a Pick 5 player. I will be "on track" at the Spa about 10-12 times this summer. I will not be playing the late Pick 5 at all. If the bet was open to everyone, I would play it 100%. I will take that money and play the Del Mar Pick 5.

:tro:
True horseplayer.

Unless you equally follow both circuits and aren't just typically gambling, why would you pass on a low takeout wager with a smaller pool that offers a huge incentive should you be the lone ticket? Both wagers are going to pay significantly more than the parlay and when you're at the track, you are now able to play.

Passing on that is not being a true horseplayer. It's being truly myopic.

Well....
I think Saratogadew made it quite clear in his post.
He said: "If the bet was open to everyone,I would play it 100%".
That is a player taking a stand,voicing his opinion with his bankroll.........a true horseplayer.

I guess this is like aperson not investing in oil company stocks because their products harm the environment.

People have to realize there is little to no growth in the sport and each concern cannibalizes each other for market share. I see NYRA having the best opportunity to do this. Best product, Best technology(apps etc), Reasonable TO(yes it could be lower), Certainly best Media, stable management, stable slot deal(sort of) ...Once Pa, NY and lastly Ca are states available its game set match

That logic would have me betting the late Pick 5 at Laurel with a 12% takeout and 10K pool.
Look, I just think it's a bad precedent that's all. I don't begrudge NYRA for trying to reel in as many account holders as they can. Down the road I don't want to see individual locked bets across many wagering platforms.

Stronach Group might have a differing opinion of "game set match". NYRA has the power now. It shifts in December to Stronach. Do we really want separate bets at Gulfstream and Santa Anita for "on track" and Xpressbet account holders? All horseplayers are should be treated equally! Too much divisiveness in the world already:{>:

We're already not treated equally by rebate structures at every platform and many bricks and mortar venues that give higher volume players an edge.

We're already not treated equally because I can't play on the Exchange Market but New Jersey residents can.

Gulfstream isn't treating us equally by building in an artificial takeout via preferential treatment of volume batch betting groups that destroys the small-medium players.

It's an unusual business and inequities are inherent in it.

I am not sure its so different then casino's. There are plenty of casinos that alter rules to cater to whales. Even a 100 dollar a hand BJ player gets to play with in essence a smaller takeout. You can get a % of your loses in a rebate at a casino IF you play large enough. The significant difference is you play v the house at a casino but within a parimutual pool in racing. Since the rebates are coming out of the rake of the companies end that is offering incentives does that more adversely effect others in the pool. I dont know, its Wolf and a few others guys I would trust to really know the effects.

While I see your point, exactly how many times during the Saratoga meet do you envision/project there being a lone winning ticket? (serious question)

Personally, I too would rather take a swing at Del Mar's P5 pool where guys like Declansharbor and others would be able to add their dead money to the wager without restrictions, rather than make a bet into a pool that is limited ( incentive or no incentive for scooping the whole pool ).

The $100,000 guaranteed payout for a sole winner is available only to NYRA Bets members through the end of July.

Isn't this kind of like the Nyra mafia in action. Don't they gave equal protection laws against this type of exclusivity ?

Your work in the Songbird thread was dumb enough. No need to double down.

You got taken to task by Freddy. Most would call it a night after that.

"Most would call it a nght after that.".......Brokedown Palace is playing Alabama

Is this wager still limited to NYRA bets customers now that the meet has shifted to belmont?

Also, curious to hear how everyone thought this idea turned out this summer at Saratoga. I noticed some very healthy payoffs in the late pk5 as compared to the pooled late pk4, interested to hear thoughts about the pro's and con's.

-bt-

Yes, the NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 is being offered on specific dates during the Belmont Fall meeting. The following is from the NYRA Bets web site.

The NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 returns to Belmont this September! Play the NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 every weekend during September through October 1 at Belmont Park. The NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 is exclusively for NYRA Bets customers*, New York on-track bettors, and those wagering with a New York simulcasting facility. Look for the wager right from the “Bet Type” dropdown in the wager pad.

Dates of the NYRA Bets Late Pick 5: Sept 9, 10, 16, 17, 23, 24 and Oct 1

10 Million Point Giveaway

The exclusive 10 Million Point Giveaway promotion lets horseplayers earn more when they win the NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 using their NYRA Bets account. The limited time offer runs between September 9 th – October 1 st. Every weekend the NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 is offered, if you hit the NYRA Bets Late Pick 5, you'll hit/split 1.25 million points - that's a total of 10 million points over 8 days! The NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 and point giveaway will be on Sept 9, 10, 16, 17, 23, 24 and Oct 1.

Yesterday the late pick 5 handle at keeneland handles $430,000. At Aqueduct, the NYRA bets only pick 5 handled $45,000.

How is the plan working ?

NYRA- sign up with us or you can’t play with our ball
Patrons - don’t tell me with whom I must bet. I’ll just take my play elsewhere.

You hate NYRA and more specifically Andy. You take shots at both out of no where. Get a life.

I don't hate either, just wish they were doing a better job. Isn't it foolish to lock that many bettors out of that wager ? The numbers speak for themselves. $430K vs 45K ? As far as the little guy, his disrespect for Zen , Songbird, and Winx speaks volumes. Surprisingly after Songbird won twice at Saratoga in front of his own eyes, he still had nothing good to say about her. The Sport needs heroes. It makes fans for life. Secretariat, affirmed, Seattle Slew, and the Bid got me hooked for life. Who doesn't love Winx ? 25 in a row looking like a superstar every time. He compares her to Rapid Redux.

Not many of us that bet actual money would consider chasing a 45K Pick 5 considering the degree of difficulty.

If it was open to all, the handle on it would have been 300K instead of $45K in my opinion. It’s a failed experiment. Let everyone bet it.

While I know this will bother some folks here on the board, the NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 is the PERFECT counter-play (counter-argument meaning "player friendly") to the crazy Rainbow 6 (single winning ticket) bets that are taking money out of the churn at so many racetracks.

NYRA is keeping their players on the inside of this bet, controlling their own pool (and with it, the full takeout), and is redistributing winnings to folks inside their own wagering network. This develops further churn and cultivates players.

Without seeing (what I will call) the re-churn figures, we cannot be sure of the replay rates.

One thing for sure is that if big players from off-the-NYRA circuit play and cash, that would leave to a cash drain (similar to a Rainbow 6) for local players. The NYRA Bets Late Pick 5 is the exact opposite.

That is food for thought. Good to hear another viewpoint.

Songbird is about the 20th best female horse of the past 10 years. Get over it.