Oh thats complete rubbish and nonsense. Piffle and bladerdash.
American racing is almost completely predicated on speed and dirt, or both.
The big purses are there, the huge residual breeding money is there, so thats what folks focus on over here. You ever see the stud fees of grass horses over here? Even the good ones? You can't give em away.
Everything is a product of money. And because the heavy emphasis is on dirt racing, thats what our finest trainers excel at and try to succeed with.
Turf racing is real hard to love here as an owner or trainer. They don't write that many grass races, you have to sweat out getting into the field when they do(they overflow quite a bit), or you get rained off the grass. Its just not option number one over here.
A trainer I know says that the reason the Euros have never won a Derby over here is quite simple, they don't have the slightest idea how to do it. Their record in BC dirt races is also HORRIBLE.
If you think those guys over there are rocket scientists I beg to differ with you. Their training programs consist of gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop. They don't run fast fractions over there and the race is won in the lane by the horse who is most fit with a burst of speed.
Now, who do you think is more skilled? The guy who gallops the **** out of a horse each day? Or the guy who has to get one to attend a half mile in 45 and change and KEEP ON GOING 9f or 10f? Are you ****ing kidding me?
If their horses are so much better(on a whole, not just on grass) why do they win so few dirt races over here when shipped in despite the lofty price tags and dirt breeding that many have?
Know why? Its because their trainers don't have the foggiest notion of how to train a horse to rip off a half mile in 45 and still keep on going.
This is just nonsense.

Noone is arguing that. I think thats a given. But to try and use ROG's loss as "proof" that he wasn't an incredible horse is nonsense.

that's so incorrect! lol hell, a lot of the best horses over there were bred over here!!

But to try and use ROG's loss as "proof" that he wasn't an incredible horse is nonsense.

I dont remember ever doing that. I was in agreement with Randall and ROG's loss only goes to prove an absolute obvious point that we all can attest to: Any horse can lose. I'm sure the 3 of us combined have lost out on many scores in our lives with horses who faltered at very short odds who looked invinceable on paper.

Like I said Zieg if they are so superior then why don't they ever win the Derby over here? Because they don't want to? heck, they have basically given up trying, thats how hard it is to do.
They have a style of racing that just allows them to gallop, gallop, gallop up to a race.
They also don't really ever have to work on gate skills of a horse(which I think is pretty obvious watching the way most of them break when they come here for the BC). Over there they can just fall out of the gate and lope along early.
Its not so easy when you have to teach a horse to break fast and show speed, sometimes blazing speed, and still have the stamina to finish a 9f or 10f race.
The whole notion of how superior they are is incredible. The fact is I would expect an entire continent of trainers to produce grass horses who would beat ours more often than not because thats what they do all year long, they train and race horses for grass races. Thats what they race on over there, so thats what they focus on.

I'm inclined to agree...just like the golfers. He says, tongue firmly in cheek!

thing is, the perception is there that the horses overseas are better...than you hear things like what they said at the arlington million this year, that euros have won 1/3 of the millions. that leaves us with the other 2/3's. but if you asked anyone casually to guess the ratio. i bet they'd think it was skewed far more towards the euros.
there's also the fact that we don't ship over there...but why would anyone go there??? plenty of top notch racing here, with purses to match. we aren't afraid to ship, horses go to japan and dubai every year. but the $ is there.

hawk wing was a tremendous horse--gave the single best performance in europe that year--he's a ky bred. so was nebraska tornado. sadler's wells, every year at the top of the sires list--he's by northern dancer. so many bloodlines over there are similar to here, with northern dancer everywhere....look at the race geo washington won the other day, the QEll...top three finishers were all by danzig stallions.

lol harry!!!

george may be the best on paper....but we all know he's a huge question mark as far as temperment.

besides, if rock of gibraltar can lose, anyone can!
that was the only race i missed on the espn pick six that day....and i don't think domedriver ever won again either.

Tim one of my most basic rules on Cup Day is never to single a Euro no matter how good they supposedly are.
I've seen too many of them berak 5 lengths behind the field, and I could write a book about the complete abortions of rides I've witnessed from their "fine jockeys". I mean Dettori is supposed to be the big star and to anyone who wants to tell me all about him, I only need refer them to the ride he gave Swain in the BCC back in 1998. That may have been one of the most tragic rides in history. Or that idiot who rode Antonius Pius, he should have had his liscense to ride in the US revoked on the spot. The worst was that guy Murtaugh who cost Lans and I about 400 grand last year(we woulda had 3 5 outta 6's on cup day) who rode Whipper. You just have to see this tragic incompetent piece of garbage's ride on Whipper last year in the mile.
The little chart they put on the side of the pp's said "traffic turn, checked 1/8th" but that basically only tells about 5% of the story. He also quit riding the horse on the turn for no apparent reason that I or anyone else could ever fathom. He got beat about 2 1/4 lengths.
Hell Dancing Brave got beat by Manila and he was supposed to be the greatest horse over there since Nijinsky.
I won't ever single a Euro, I don't care who they are. You do that and most of the time you end up cursing out a Euro jock for weeks in your sleep.

george washington is/should be the horse to beat. but he's no cinch. not by a mile:D . the mile looks to be bery much wide open. i think there will be at least 10 horses with an honest shot to win it. it's always a race that has major traffic issues which can spoil any horse's chances. this field will be loaded with talent and should be a blast to watch.

I would single G dub without hesitation. That being said I understand where Oracle is coming from, I have witnessed the poor rides, its just different over here. Infact they would probably do much better if they put someone familiar with the tracks on the animal. As far as the horses and racing goes in Europe, its just pure over there. The animals are more genuine, the horsemanship is more genuine, its still the sport of kings in Europe. Here its the sport of syndicates, welching owners, broke trainers, and cheaters, but I love it

By the way Gander when you get in a stretch duel with a Euro horse ridden by a Euro jockey, you can go to the window and get on line to beat the rush before they even hit the 1/16th pole. Our jockeys are athletes, their jockeys are riders.
Remember Giants Causeway and Kinane trying to get by Sakhee and Mccarron? Yeah, ok. How about Tiznow and Mccarron vs Sakhee and Dettori? Oh you think you are going by Frankie? I think not.
My very favorite was Pat Eddery and Trempolino storming past Pat Day and Theatrical in 1987. Day simply shook the reins and then went to a hard whip and surged right back past him leaving a stunned Eddery wondering how the hell he lost the race.
Their jockeys have about 10% the athleticism that our jockeys do.

I take the point that there have been poor European rides, you should have added Kinane on Giant's Causeway, but I think you're overly harsh and overlook the good rides, more often than not when their strength has been discernibly more effective than their more rhythmic US couterparts. Fallon on Islington vs Prado on L'Ancresse always sticks in my mind. But also Murtagh on Kalanisi. Even Lester on Royal Academy.
As for Spencer, he had a pretty rough season at Coolmore, but has got better since, but it would be incredibly tough to judge any jockey based on a ride on that huge dog Antonius Pius.

Gander do you remember that call from Durkin on the Trempolino/Theatrical race? BUT THEATRICALS GAME!!! AND HE'S COMING RIGHT BACK!!!!!!
That was a classic call.

[quote=oracle80]that idiot who rode Antonius Pius, he should have had his liscense to ride in the US revoked on the spot. QUOTE]


I think Jamie Spencer was on Antonio Pius... he's also the same jock that was on Powerscourt in the 2004 Arlington Million (the one he won but was DQ'd)

Harry, Spencer still rides so many howlers though...

Let's not leave out Kieran Fallon's ride on Borgia in the initial F&M BC Turf....that was an all-timer.

Who was the guy on Indian Skimmer? I think Jim Carrey played him in the movie.

Yeah, well you can keep Spencer and that clown Murtaugh, thanks anyway.
Harry? Have you ever watched Murtaugh's ride on Whipper last year? Could you honestly try and explain to me what exactly you think was going through his head? Because quite frankly I don't think I will ever understand it.

The Powerscourt ride was worse than the Antonio Pius ride. They were both brutal though

Oh I forgot Indian Skimmer. He should have been arrested.

I disagree that powerscourt's ride was worse. In that case he just made one extremely stupid mistake. Granted it was one of the dumbest mistakes ever made.
But the Pius ride was a masterpiece of incompetence. A true tapestry of horrors. He basically managed to weave every possible mistake a jockey can make into one, one mile race. It was quite a feat.
Please watch the Mutaugh ride on Whipper last year, if anyone can truly give me any type of explanation as to what his goals and aims possibly were, I'd love to hear it. truly. My best possible explanation is that a rival jock slipped LSD into his gatorade before the race. There is no way anyone could be that horrendous on just sheer incompetence. Little kids at a pony riding academy could have given much better rides.

I've never seen or bet on a horse that is even money or less in any Breeders Cup ever. It is a losing proposition. Too much competition, too many big fields. You have to go for it on BC days. Pu-ssy footing will get you nowhere. Can GW win, sure. Will he be on my ticket, hell no. Maybe a Pick 4, but never as a single.


And I still am seething over the amazing Hawk Wing, who need only finish in the super on BC day to give me a 55 grand super with Volp on top and Megs to boot (with Eve Att). Sold a bill a goods on that Euro and left off Mil Brew in favor of Hawk Wing. Tough to swallow....

Be wary of Euros on the dirt. Did Starcraft and Oratorio finish yet?

You'd think such "pure geniuses and superior trainers" would have figured out in over 20 years of BC races that to win on the dirt over here that your horse has to show some speed and break running from the gate.
I imagine they realize this but lack the SKILL to accomplish training a horse how to do this.
I guess the "broke trainers" that were just referred to have a little more horsemanship and skill, because they are able to get horses to do this.

Rock of Gibraltar loss the race at the draw. It is nearly impossible to win in top company at Arlington with the rail out from the outside. Nevertheless his race was outstanding.

I would think George Washington is strictly the one to beat and at Churchill they will race from the hedge. I am not frightened by singling a euro. BBB

Not only did I back Whipper, but I'd laid Artie Schiller for a fortune too, so, no, obviously I wasn't best pleased.

But the horse needed to be waited with, and in US turf races with virtually non-existent straights that can be very hard to do. But he would have got up had he not had to switch past Limehouse, and if he had we would all be lauding him for a brilliant ride. All in all it was a messy race, and one which lends weight to my view that its just not satisfactory running so-called championship turf races at the majority of US courses.

ANTONIUS PIUS steadied in tight on the first turn, raced well back for seven furlongs, steadied sharply while in traffic on the turn, moved between horses to get clear in upper stretch, lugged in while gaining in midstretch, closed strongly from outside nearing the sixteenth pole then checked behind the winner while lugging in again in the late stages.

Now thats a true masterpiece right there.
Thats his official chart call in the 2004 BC Mile.
There was more, but they only are given so much room on each horse.

I dont think its the trainers in the United States that get the speed out of the horses, its the breeders. They are bred to be speed balls, all the trainer has to do is go out there and cut them lose. Of course American horses are going to be faster, they are bred that way, they are jacked up on equipoise, they are full of Deca, Lasix, Tren, Winstrol, god knows what else.

Orcale, I do not mean to say all trainers in the states are poor. There are some very very talented trainers. However, I would be willing to say that the horsemanship in general in Europe is much better. From yard help, on through the breeding.

No ****ing kidding he would have won without the switch. He wasnt forced to do that!!!! he CHOSE to do that!!!!!!!!!!!
He also quit riding the horse on the turn and took a hard hold as the horse lost ground. Then inexplcably, after allowing him to lose 3-4 lengths, he jerked his head off and switched lanes like a motorist on the LA freeway about 6 times. If I had been at that Cup, I'd still be doing time for assault of an incompetent dwarf.

Boy I hated Artie in the BC last year also. Tim and some others were believers and cashed because of it. Just on matchups against him I probably got hit for a grand. Thought he was ready to X, but he didn't, he did have the trip but he got it done.

Thats nonsense Bid. Yard help? Well lets see, none of our good trainers train from "Yards". They take barns on the backside. And as far as breeding goes, thats nonsense as well. You guys basically get all the pricey Storm Cats, noone breeds more speed than him. Yet I seem to remember Hold That Tiger and several dozen more spotting everyone 10 lengths at the gate.
Blah.
Your trainers don't even have to worry about gate schooling. And that whole horsemanship thing is a joke as well. Look, the notion that because some guy dresses well and trains in a yard where every horses training chart says "gallop" every day (do they even make charts? I guess they don't need to, be a huge waste of paper and time to just write in Gallop 7 times each week next to every horse) means that he is a "horseman" is just rubbish.
Wanna know what "horsemanship" is? Horsemanship is trying to figure out how to get a horse to attend a blistering pace in a 20 horse field and keep on running for 10F.
Now, when one of those "great horsemen" figure out how to do that(like my trainer friend says, they can't, they don't know how to), I figure we will see one of them in the winners circle at the Kentucky Derby.
Lets just say I'm not holding my breath. They will never do it. I think its pretty obvious that the so called "horsemen" over there are one trick ponies who only kow how to train a horse one way to one thing.
Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop. Sounds pretty complex huh?

I dont want to argue with you about Euro trianing, horses, or breeding, you obviously have your opinion, and I have mine. At least we agree on allday being the best vet.


Jog, Gallop, Breeze, walk, whatever, its not complicated to be a horsetrainer. Whether you are in Europe or over here. I simply think the game is more pure in Europe. I like the fact the animals arent medicated as heavily, that is what I mean by pure in regards to the racing. As far as the horsemanship, Ive been here, and Ive been there, its really not even close. Not to say there arent any fantastic trainers and help over here, however the discrepancy between good and poor is greater over here. Even boarders on incomeptant

If its not so compicated then why can't those "master horsemen" figure out how to get a horse to blaze early and stay on in a dirt route race?
Since this is not complicated, supposedly, then why can't they do it?

And Bid, lets call a spade a spade shall we?
If you are trying to delude us into thinking that horsemanship is superior because only superwealthy own horses over there and the trainers don't have the financial pressure that many of their American counterparts do to perform, thats nonsense as well.
Those "broke trainers" rise each day and have to return cash to non sheikh and non Aga Kahn owners as well as themselves.
The don't have the luxury of being able to just gallop around for months at a time aiming for three races a year.
Which makes the job they do all the more impressive.
You're right, I suppose at "yards" where the wealthy owner is paying the payroll and you can hire the finest of all all help, that is an advantage they have.
That doesn't make them better horsemen, it makes them trainers with wealthier owners. They don't have to pay a free lancer named Franky 15 bucks to breeze one as soon as hes done breezing one for another barn.
Despite this advantage to the Euros, they regularly get disgraced and thumped in dirt races, their horses never break from the gate, and they have even given up trying to win the Derby.
Give me on of those "broke" trainers from over here when I'm trying to win a Derby or Classic any day of the week.

Probably the same reason we dont go over and win the Arc, we just arent bred to do it. Our horses are better suited to our racing, theres to theres. As a whole I said they had better animals, I believe that. I think they are closer to coming over here and shaking up our racing, than we are to going over there and laying one on them in the Arc.

I think any horse aimed to an American Classic needs to be prepped and trained over here.

Thats because we don't care about winning the Arc. There isn't any money in it!!!!! Turf sires can't be given away around here, you don't get 8 figure breedig deals on grass horses here, period. And why go to the Arc when you can wait 5 weeks and run for more purse MONEY at home in the BCTurf?
Don't you get it? We don't care about their races, they do nothing financially for anyone over here, there is no point to going there!!!

WHy is that?
Can't those "master horsemen" get it done over there?