I will never support anything Lukas does after going wild that poor horse deserved better after the KY derby.

The Big Horse
 

I read ,The Big Horse , a couple of years ago about the trainer PG Johnson. It was about Volponi. I seem to recall a similar take on Lukas in this book, on working both sides in buying horses. It didnot paint him in a very complimentary light. Sorry, I can't provide a page number for you to look it up.

I am gonna get that book

Thats allright you have no idea if i have taken, passed or scored on the GRE test but i am sure you already know.:D cause your the smart one here

Once again this is a freedom of speech and you bother me i didn't tell you write back on what i posted you took that upon yourself cause you talk to Lukas and all, you can use the PM all you want buddy but keep my name out your dental!

OK see ya!!!:D


LUKAS stole PADUA'S $ IMO

We've debated about Lukas many times on this board. The fans have a totally different perception of Lukas than anyone in the business. The fan see him smiling on television and they know he won all these big races. That's about all they know. They don't know that he's broken down so many horses that many of the insurance companies will not insure his horses.

I don't know one person in the business that thinks Lukas is a good trainer. He had about a 4 year head-start on everyone in terms of pharmocology back in the 1980s. He would put his horses on steroids when they were yearlings. His 2 year olds were like 3 year olds in terms of physical maturity. That's why Lukas was so dominant in the 2 year old races. Lukas always had great assistants. He was a great salesman. He knew how to talk to people and not only that he was having huge success. Before you knew it, he was getting $70 million worth of horses every year while the other top trainers were lucky to get $10 million. Many good trainers were lucky to get $3 million worth of horses. Anyway, before you knew it all the other trainers were doing the same thing as Lukas in terms of steroids and all the other stuff. He still had a huge advantage because he had such good owners. At that point he was still outspending most trainers by 30x. Anyway, everything eventually caught up with him. He still gets great horses but obviously not as good as he used to. He still gets better horses than 99% of the guys out there, yet his win percentage is usually around 10%. I think the guy is a horrible trainer. I know that sounds crazy to people who aren't in the business. They can't belive that a guy who had that much success is not a good trainer. You don't need to take my word for it. Ask anyone in the business what the lowdown is on Lukas. They'll all tell you the same thing. If you even mention his names, most guys will just roll their eyes.

To this day everyone just shakes their heads in the morning when they see his horses train. His horses are so sore that it is unbelievable.

Finally someone who knows lukas is a bussness man and not a horseman!
You da man!:D

Even his own employees think he's a terrible trainer. I've heard so many stories about them being happy when he leaves town because they can finally give the horses a break. They'll just jog them or pony them for a few days while he's gone and Lukas thinks their following his instructions. When he's in town, he won't listen to his employees. They'll tell him a horse is sore, or has tendon, or whatever and Lukas won't listen. He'll say, "Oh the horse is fine. He's not sore. That's just the way he moves. Go gallop him two miles". Or if the horse has a tendon, "He'll say, "No, he doesn't have a tendon. That's just a cosmetic thing. Go work him 5 furlongs."

Thats a champion trainer for ya Da Hoss:D

In terms of percentages, his number of breakdowns is astronomically higher than any of the other guys. That's why so many insurance companies won't insure his horses. No other trainers have that problem.

In addition, he has more horses that ease than anybody else. They keep stats on that type of thing and he had something like 4x more horses ease than the average trainer. That is incredible. How often do you see a Bobby Frankel, Todd Pletcher, Bill Mott, or any other trainer's horses run dead last by 30 or not even finish the race? It is incredibly rare. The only way a horse will run dead last by 40 lengths is if the horse was either so sore that he shouldn't be running or he was so hopelessly overmatched that it is was ridiculous. A competent trainer will rarely have a horse ease. It happens with Lukas horses all the time.

Trust me. He is at a totally differen level. I've honestly never seen anything like it. Nobody even comes close to him. His horses just hobble around the track in the morning. There is no trainer out there with horses that sore.

I'll tell you one thing that hurt Lukas quite a bit. His son was actually a great trainer and his son would run his whole East coast operation at times. Anyway, his son had a terrible accident and had to retire. I think that certainly had an effect. When you lose a great assistant, it hurts. Wayne was always an excellent judge of talent when it came to not only hiring assistants, but picking horses out to buy. When you have great assistants, it make a huge difference. Even back in the day, his assistants oftet times would not listen to him if he was out of town. They would back off the horses when Wayne went out of town.

We can say what we want about Wayne, but I have to hand it to him for what he was able to accomplish. He was way ahead of his time.

Rupert you are one of the few people that actually know some good insite, i will listen to what you have to say from now on!

One thing that really separates Lukas from the other trainers is that he will practically never give his horses time off, even if they have a serious injury. he will run them until it is basically impossible for them to run any more. Unless they have a broken leg, he'll keep running them. You will practically never see a Lukas horse take 6-12 months off and then come back better than ever. The reason is beacuse he won't turn them out until they're so badly injured that they will never be the same. Once permanent damage is done, the horse will never be the same, even if you give them a year off.

With other trainers, you will often see their horse come back from layoffs better than ever. It happens all the time. The reason is because most trainers will stop on a horse if they have a slight injury. If you stop on them and give them time to heal, there is a good chance that they will come back 100%.

I guess you have no idea what the GRE test is and you know stooping to calling names is gonna get you suspended you better chill. I am sure you have already read the P Val post and now your blood is boiling take a walk it will cool you down.

:D

Look Going Wild is still running here is the PP

Track Date Race Class Distance Condition Jockey FP
Turfway 09/09/06 9 STAKES [3U] All Weather Track, 1M wf Mojica, O 6
Saratoga 08/25/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 7F wf Hill, C 5
Saratoga 07/30/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 6F wf Bejarano, R 2
Churchill 07/09/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 6 1/2F wf Lanerie, C 3
Churchill 06/25/06 5 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F sf Lanerie, C 5
Churchill 06/14/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 1M wf Leparoux, J 6
Churchill 05/18/06 6 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F ft Jacinto, J 5
Turfway 09/17/05 13 Kentucky Cup Sprint S. (Grade 3) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast McKee J 3
Saratoga 08/07/05 9 Amsterdam S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast Velasquez C H 7
Belmont Park 06/11/05 8 Riva Ridge Breeders' Cup S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 7 Furlongs Fast Bailey J D 6
Pimlico 05/21/05 12 Preakness S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 3/16 Miles Fast Albarado R 14
Churchill 05/07/05 10 Kentucky Derby (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/4 Miles Fast Valdivia, Jr. J 18
Keeneland 04/23/05 9 Coolmore Lexington S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Sloppy Stevens G L 5
Aqueduct 04/09/05 9 Wood Memorial S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/8 Miles Fast Espinoza V 7
Santa Anita 03/05/05 5 Santa Catalina S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Fast Bejarano R 2

I never said i couldn't go ghetto on someone you don't know where people grow up before they are able to get an education, so it does make alot of sense to people that can relate to not having alot growing up. There is nothing wrong with a GED I have friends that have GED's and do just fine for themselves. Now you have CLOWNED on the HANDICAP and people with GED's and had nothing to add that is of any use.

Going Wild is a perfect example of a horse that Lukas kept running after he was hurt. If he would have stopped on the horse right after the Lexington and given the horse six months off, the horse might have come back fine. Instead, he kept running the horse until the horse was so messed up that no amount of time off would help. It's a shame. That horse actually had a lot of talent.

By the way, Wayne does have some good qualities. He is an incredibly hard worker and he is very driven. He's a real workaholic. To be a successful trainer, it takes a lot more than just being good at training. You have to have good help. You have to have good vets and you have to know how to properly utilize your vets. You have to have good people skills to attract owners. You have to be a good self-promoter and things like that. Wayne is very presentable and make sa great first impression on people. He is impeccably dressed and well-spoken. He's a bright guy. That's hal the battle. It helps to be a good business man. Wayne had all these qualities. Not only that, but the guys is just a winner. He almost reminds me a litle of Donald Trump in a way. He comes across as a guy who does everything first-class. His barn is absolutely immaculate. He always had the nicest and cleanest barn on the backstretch. He would probably be better than practically anyone at teaching a class on "the business of training".

LOL!!!
Da Hoss here is one good lesson for you to learn. Never argue with someone so stupid as to spell insight, insite.

I could never be bored enough to talk with him.

This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.
The bashers sure see something i don't see and I will cite two glaring reasons why.
1) Many breeders I know will not go to a new sire they feel was trained by a "juice guy". There are several trainers who have trained a lotta good horses and have yet to have trained a really good sire.
D Wayne has trained many great or good sires. Dynaformer, Carson City, Capote, Cat Thief, Gulch, Grand Slam, Honour and Glory, Jump Start, Is It True, Yes Its True, Mt Livermore, Orientate, Slew City Slew, Salt Lake, Thunder Gulch, etc.
If they were all moved up so much by his "mystery methods" why do they still produce in the shed unlike many other name trainers horses?
2) The guy obviously has been a tremendous teacher of horseman. Todd Pletcher, Mark Hennig, Randy Bradshaw, Bobby Barnett, Dallas Stewart, Mike Maker, Kiarin McLaughlin, all learned under him. What are the chances that he doesnt know horsemanship with a roster of pupils like that?

Guys trained so many champions and grade one winners its too long a list to name. Hes also 71 years old. I think I'll cut him some slack.

I'm not saying a horse will come back better than ever if they had a serious injury. I'm saying that they will often times come back better than ever if you turn them out before a problem gets serious.

If you look at many of the good trainers, their win percentage is just as high with a horse coming off a 6 month layoff as with a horse that just ran a month ago. I don't have Pletcher's stats in front of me for horses coming back from a 6 months to a 1 year layoff, but I know his win percenatge for horses that haven't run for somewhere between 45 days and 6 months is 26%.

If you think that Lukas taught any of those guys how to trainn, you are crazy. He only hired guys that were great horsemen.

Oh come on now Rup, thats an anti Lukas bias showing.
Those guys sure feel like he taught them something. They all use the white bridle as a tribute to their old boss, and none of them bash him.
I just don't buy that they were already good enough to go on their own and simply became paid slaves because they wanted the challenge.

[quote=oracle80]This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.

Take a guy like James Jerkens. His normal win percentage is 17%. His win percenatge for horses coming off 45-180 day layoffs is 23%. I guess you guys are right. You shouldn't give a horse time off if they have a slight problem. The time off won't do any good.

Flower Alley must have overslept during that barn meeting and never read the memo.

None of those guys train anything like Lukas. If he was so good, you would think they would have a similar style. When they interviewed McLauglin about his days with Lukas, the only thing he said with regards to what he learned from Lukas was that "He teaches you how to get owners and stuff like that."

[quote=Rupert Pupkin]I never said that Rupert. Obviously horses need time off when they have a minor problem so it doesn't become major, and obviously D Wayne could have done a better job with giving horses time off. I think thats obvious.
Noone is disputing that. But you name a trainer and I can name weaknesses that he or she has, just like you are with D Wayne.

Who knows what they did to FA to get that big effort out of him in the BC Classic. He had just gotten beat by 15 lengths. If you have a horse with an injury and inject them to get one more race out of them, there is a good chance that they will not come back 100%. That is always the risk if you try to get one or two moe races out of a horse that is showing the beginning of a minor injury.

He only got beat by 15 lengths prior to the BC because of Pletcher's poor use of a rabbit & Chantel Sutherland.