I could have sworn I read you talking about Balmoral like it was sex replacement therapy.I must be mistaken.

I know all about it because that was the track I was betting 3-4 nights a week 12-18 months ago. I might bet that track 1 time a month now, for kicks and giggles mainly.

I know the feeling.

I didn't miss a day at Keeneland for years.
Would go in opening day and out closing day.

Was in with a great group of horsemen, horsepeople and sicko gamblers.
Those were the days.

Everyone has pretty much scattered around the world now, and it just ain't the same.

Hogwash! Travers day 40,000, Derby day 150,000, but I guess 40,000 includes "everybody"...there was not a single west coast trainer there, and why should there be when they can make money at Del Mar...you know a lot but you don't get it that the East Coast is not the end all be all, take John Q. Public in Mesa, Arizona who loves racing, maybe he gets to the Spa once in his entire lifetime...it's just too out of the way, even if you find a cheap flight to the city you're still 3.5 hours away, which is why they'll never have a BC there, but they will at Monmouth? Hmmm. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the pecking order is 1) Derby, BC and then everything else is based on proximity.

Well lets see, I've been to all three, and to me its not close.
Hogwash is trying to use a derby day figure to compare to 36 days. Wanna go average for average daily attendance at a meet?
And most folks don't go to the track for racing alone, its also the atmosphere and things to do afterwards and before.
I've been to cups at CD, Bel, Gulf, Arlington and Lone Star. They are ok I guess, but its just another day at the track.Especially since you have to pay a fortune to get in the door. And I never saw anyplace like Siros afterwards at any of them.
Derbies are great, if you are lucky enough to have friends with a great box. But i dunno about paying 50 bucks to get in the joint to sit on a folding chair in the grandstand and buy a 6 dollar water. The AVERAGE GUY gets into Saratoga for 3 dollars and gets to see grade one races 13 times a meet.
And besides, those events are one day. You blow in and you blow out.
Saratoga is 6 weeks, and anyone whos ever been there will tell you that there isnt anything like it. Anybody else been to all three and have an opinion as to what they would attend if they only had a choice to go to one?

I'm a big fan of the racing at Saratoga and if I went I'm sure I'd love the atmosphere & and scenery
my point was that a derby or breeder's cup is going to get more of the top trainers and horses showing up from all over the country (and world), thus making it a more inclusive event(s)
as for a fan not close to the east coast, they would have a better chance of seeing a BC because they move it around, or going to a derby because it is more centralized
for a trainer/owner well they'd keep their horses out west until BC time
that's simply my point...I'm sure you could ask people which they'd like to be at and the majority probably would say Saratoga, but people can't just be beemed up there from all parts of the country...a better question would be how many derbys have you been to, how many BCs, and how many trips to the Spa? not so much which provided you with the best experience
as I'm sure Saratoga is a wonderful experience everyone should go at least once I would urge, myself included

I don't really see how where people are located matters to be honest. If I lived in Cali, I'd hitchhike across the country if I had to be here on opening Day.
As far as the BC goes? Last year it was 3 1/2 hours from my house and I didn't go. Lans was full up with all sorts of folks for First Sam's race at his table and I woulda had to sit upstairs. I just said screw it, I've been to Belmont many times, would have to travel and sit in a traffic jam, blah. So I stayed home and watched it on tv without having to stand on line to pee.
I'll go this year because I love kentucky and the friends I have there. But you won't see me at Monmouth Park the following year even though its real close.
Racing is best enjoyed while being comfortable. Saratoga is about the only place I know of where you can wear shorts and get in the joint for three bucks and watch racing of that quality while music plays in the background and people party at picnic tables and people are dressed up the old fashioned way in jackets in the clubhouse boxes.
Afterwards you can WALK to a variety of bars and restaurants for more merriment and oh yes, the DRF is sold on every streetcorner.
Its the atmosphere Mike. I went to a BC at a certain place and couldnt even get the next days DRF. They didnt even have it at most of the stores around there.
This whole place embraces racing(especially for that 6 weeks) and everywhere you go people are talking horses. You go out for a drink and you will always see some guy with a DRF and you say "who do you like?". Its like a continuous 6 week racing festival where its ok to walk around a be a horse fan with the DRF under your arm. Its just not like that anyplace else that I have ever been.
The whole town is about racing 24/7 during the meet.
And noplace else is there an atmosphere like the one in the mornings during workouts. Thats the prize in the crackerjack box. Warm sunny mornings where the horses prance onto the track in front of you as you sit in a clubhouse box that belongs to a zillionaire in the afternoon. Trainers walking by and saying hello and asking the clockers(real and fake) "what did you get him in?" Most places won't let spectators in to see works at all.
Like I said, its not the racing, thats just the icing on the cake. Head on down to Belmont on Friday and you could shoot a cannon through the place and not hit anyone. On Saturday even with the grade ones you are talking about 15 grand or fewer. And if you go out in NYC on Friday night with the DRF under your arm and ask someone who they like, they will say either the Mets, Giants, Jets, or Yankees.

A man of your stature has to pay $3 to get in???

i have been to every large track in america and one in england and one in ireland. nothing compares to belmont park with a triple crown on the line. second is the kentucky derby. third is breeders cup day. fourth is breeders cup preview day at belmont park. saratoga does not have one day that can compare to any of the above four days. travers day is a distant fifth. saratoga is a great meet but it is primarily rich people from new york, new jersey, connecticut and the locals. the racing is great but the electricity there never approaches a derby or belmont day. never.

Everyone pays these days Scav, last year even the jockey's wives had to pay. The audit of NYRA criticized letting anyone in free and gone were the days of owners leaving people passes every day.
Bailey threw a fit last year when his wife was asked to pay to get in.
They sold passes this year to make it easier for regulars. 35 bucks for the meet. 75 bucks for the meet for the clubhouse.
I hadn't payed to get in in 10 years before last year. Everyone pays now, unless you are press or have credentials as an employee or owner.

I would tell them GFY and I would also mention that I would put my action through Pinnacle, they would fork over $75 real quick.

NYRA: "$3 per day please"
Scav: "GFY, I will make sure Pinnacle sends you a thank you letter for my action"

NYRA: Thats very nice now please leave the grounds.
Scav: GFY
NYRA: Oh look there's Mr Cook, the head of security for us here who used to be the superintendant of the NYS Police force. Hes going to solve your problem for you!!

I'm planning to visit Saratoga for the first time next year. I'm already looking forward to a great week of racing.

LOL. Would you guys quit being a couple of hens (a la Scuds) and give me your opinion on the Pirates Bounty tomorrow at Delmar.

Probably victor espinoza and/or the horse that is the heavy favorite. Del Mar is on life support this year.

I'm the biggest derby fan there ever was
derby week I'm like a dope fiend about to make a big score
my eyes are bugging out and I'm foaming at the mouth
well, a few of you have seen me in this awful condition
...can't imagine anything more intense
but I'll withhold judgement
just saying, Saratoga is hard to get to for a lot of folks
even if the motivation is there

you say that Del Mar has a consistently weak quality of racing? What are you smoking? Del Mar has the best quality of racing in the country. Del Mar and Saratoga have the two best meets in the country in terms of quality. Look at the horses who have run at Del Mar over the years. Last year, the BC Juvenille winner Stevie Wonderboy ran at Del Mar, Wild Fit the BC Juvenille Filly runner-up ran at Del Mar. I don't think I need to bore you and name all the Breeder's Cup winners such as Singletary, Sweet Catomine, and Pleasantly Perfect have run at Del Mar. Del Mar has never lacked in their quality of racing. They have had just as many superstars over the years as Saratoga if not more.

But Rupertk they run so many cheap claimers. I'm talking 10 claimers, and a lot at that.
Spa has claimers, but not like that. ANd they must have set the record this meet for maiden claimers, state bred maiden claimers. Yuch.
Its just that those cheap races seem to oevrshadow the quality races they do have. And if you think that racing is on a par with Spa,s well. I dunno what you are seeing. 12 grade ones at the spa, just as many grade 2's. I don't see that at Del mar.
And besides its the evevry day product thats so weak there.

the saratoga v del mar argument is rather boring. both are excellent and have their own good things. the average purse distribution though at saratoga, del mar and i believe keeneland fall are virtually identical.

At the highest levels, i agree with you. The stars that come out in So Cal are most of the time every bit as good and sometimes better than the stars in the east. You could name a million stars like that.

What has slipped is the day to day stuff that fills out the card. I mean, it seems that the only races they can fill are 22k mcl races. I think more than anything its workers comp laws. When guys like Dollase, Lukas and even Frankel for the most part dont run their best stock anymore, its going to hurt overall quality.

Delmar has some nice races on the weekends, but those undercards leave a lot to be desired. The weekdays are usually an utter mess, although tomorrow has a decent sprint stake.

Yes, that is true that Del Mar does have some crappy races but that's true everywhere. Keeneland actually runs some claiming races for lees than $10k.

Saratoga may not have as many cheap claiming races, but they have a ton of state-bred races. A lot of those races are pretty weak in terms of quality. Overall, I would give the edge in quality to Saratoga, but I certanly would not say that the quality of racing is weak at Del Mar. It's one of the best meets in the country.

Agreed. I, too, get defensive about California racing when people down the top stars for "only racing in cali". Why do the california horses have to ship east but the New York horses dont have to ship west?

I agree with you. However, the problem nowadays is that the tracks are so dangerous in California, that a guy would have to be crazy to ship to California to run his horse. If I had a horse back East, I wouldn't want to ship to California to run on those rock-hard tracks. The horse may not come back in one piece.

this is an excellent point. i just spent the entire summer at saratoga and it was great but i have spent an entire summer at del mar and the racing was just as good. there is a huge east coast bias in horse racing. even midwestern racing does not get the respect it deserves. saratoga has plenty of 2yr old and new york bred races that leave a lot to be desired. gulfstream park had some of the worst racing in the country last year but because there are so many new york trainers there is gets a better reputation than it deserves.

there is a huge east coast bias in horse racing

I would agree with that. Horses like Lava Man dont get the credit they are due. I find it funny that this year's older horse division in the east is apparently so much stronger than that in the west. Exactly (besides Invasor) is so fabulous?

As I have stated before, I don't think Invasor is anything special. I think Bernardini would beat him by 4-5 lengths.

don't forget everyone bent over backwards to excuse st liams bad run in the big cap last year. but lava man isn't given the same consideration, when he was vanned off in his last start prior to shipping east and the far east. obviously a tired horse, obviously the trainer thought he was of sterner stuff. they're lucky they didn't ruin him for good...thankfully some time and some patience, and he's back better than ever. this is lava mans best year ever--anyone can go look at his prior years to see that he's at the top of his game.

i know a lot of people, myself included, gave mineshaft a get out of jail free card when he skipped the bcc in cali. just imagine the uproar that would erupt if they tried the same with lava man!! and he's undefeated this year, while mineshaft ( who i really like(d)) was not in his HOY year. ah, but that was different...he beat east coasters!! lol


if the west coast is as hard and difficult to run over, and stay healthy on, as we all believe it be, shouldn't lava man get that much MORE credit for doing it all year, without a blemish?????? i mean, if the easterners are such cream puffs they can't do it, how is lava man somehow the lesser???

"it's the place to be seen and the true fan watches at home" is exactly why you want to see Saratoga, because the die hard fans thrive there. The people who show up that aren't there to picnic and 'spin' are like all of us here. There is just no words to describe the feeling of wandering about the track and city of Saratoga Springs both day and night. (and everyone has to stop at Siro's at some point in their lives!) I've been to nearly every corner of our country and Saratoga really is something special. If you love racing as much as I do, you can really feel a natural kinship to so many people because the racing fan is few and far between in the world, but in Saratoga, they are aplenty. I've been to Keeneland, The Derby, Oaklawn, Suffolk Downs (we all slum it sometimes :D ) Aqueduct and Belmont and like Oracle said, I too would give up every BC & Derby for the beauty of Saratoga.

You also forgot to mention that average field size went up this year and is very likely higher than most tracks....

One of the best things about Saratoga is all the 2 year old races. Those are my favorite races. You get to see a lot of the future stars. For me, they are the best betting races too.

They wouldnt get that or care about it Sightseek. Once these West Coast diehards get on the soapbox its pretty comical.
I havent't even looked at Dle Mar's card tomorrow, I swear. And I will make a a line right now
over/under on cheap claimers or maiden claimers 4 1/2
Now I will go and look.

I was close, it was 4. But it looks like an exceptional card for them. Quite nice!!!

more evidence of an east coast bias here. tomorrow's del mar card is excellent by any standard. saratoga is no better than del mar or keeneland. all three are basically the same. they all have good things about them. personally i like the keeneland meet better than saratoga and saratoga better than del mar. it all depends what you like. saratoga is very elitist though. not a fan of that.

:D

(oh and I don't mean to be picky but you could have added Kent D's ride on Relaxed Gesture as the worst ride of the meet! The day after his car accident wasn't all that successful either)

I just said I hadn't looked. And that it was only 4.
And if you think all three are the same, you are kidding yourself. The other two run very cheap claiming races. As low as 5 grand at Keeneland, and 10 grand at Del Mar.
You do not get those at Saratoga.
I might point out, that closing day at Saratoga contained only two claiming races.:)
Touche!!!
And if you really wanna get into it, and want me to start pulling out facts, lets get to it!!!
Shall we compare Saturday cards at each track this past summer and see who ran more cheaper races than who, and who ran more stakes and allowances. And who has more grade one races? Sounds like fun to me.

Keeneland is WAY easier to handicap than Saratoga...actually I think Santa Anita is as well. Speed! Speed! Speed! Since Saratoga was full swing I didn't cap much at Del Mar, but I've been told it isn't as favoring as SA.