I'm not listening to Pelosi in the least. I'm listening to every economist in the world. You might try not politicizing things that have nothing to do with politics, and learn something.

Guess what, Dell? Putting money into stocks, REIT's, T-bills and bonds - to save in tax liabilities - is exactly why giving money to rich people does NOT go back into the economy, and decreases government income. All those things you listed above takes money OUT of the economy. You just proved my point. Thanks :tro:

Consider this: Bush initiated massive tax benefits to the wealthy in 2001 and 2003. Since that time we've lost 800,000 jobs. Gee - doesn't seem to work the way the GOP says it does, does it?

Are you actually saying that they didn't decide to add many more workers with the money they saved? Oh, they got to have something that says different. Just you wait.

so commercial real estate (REITS) treasury bills (America) and bonds (everything from road projects to bridges) yes muni bonds are where the tax beni's lie are taking money out of the economy? :zz::zz::zz:

Yes, Dell. When you save money, it is not circulating in the economy. It is not liquid and circulating.

An unemployed person gets 300 a week (average). That - every penny - goes right back into the economy immediately, directly to food, gasoline, rent/mortgage, heat, electricity, etc. Multiply that by millions as we have now.

Louisville and Lexington have about 700,000 people in the metro areas roughly. We have 100,000 on unemployment in KY (that will be off by end of Dec if not extended). Figuring only 25,000 of those live in the metro areas, that is $7,500,000 a week out of the Lexington and Louisville economies if unemployment doesn't get extended by end of December. Already this week thousands are off it in this state. People can't buy groceries, gasoline and electricity, those companies lay off employees, quickly. We go into a depression really quickly.

what if by chance a rich person owns the apartment building, bank note and is invested in utilities? And a terrorist Muslim owns the grocery store.:eek:

Explain how that $300 comes back as more than it went out w/o a color quality copy machine?

That $300 goes immediately out into the economy as cash. It isn't saved.

Pretend $50 goes to the grocery store. The grocery then gives $20 out in salaries (which goes out again to groceries, rent, etc a second time), puts $5 into inventory (grows business) and he puts $10 out in car purchase (expands who gets part of that $300) and $5 out into his groceries, rent, etc.

Pretend $250 goes to rent. Repeat the above with the owner paying off the mortage, then buying groceries, etc.

That $300 goes out and circulates throughout the economy multiple times before it ends up "taken out" (into long-term capital investments, savings, etc) Each time it circulates, it requires a business to be open and have inventory, it supports salaries: grocery, truck line, grower of food, gas station owner, clerk, gasoline tanker driver, etc.

Bonds, etc. only make money that goes into the economy the first time they are sold. Trading stocks, etc. in the markets does NOT circulate money into the economy that causes growth.

New Rumor on Tax Cuts Votes tomorrow
 

Today the House passed a bill giving tax cut continuation only to 98% of Americans (not to the wealthy for their income above $250K)

The rumor [edit: not a rumor, it's true] is that the Senate has now abandoned the idea of having 4 straw poll type of votes tomorrow.

Harry Reid is apparently listening to the massive pressure from the left on this tax cut issue (ad from MoveOn.org, innundation of White House and Senate with e-mails, telephone calls from constituents, etc) and [correction Saturday] the Senate will hold TWO REAL VOTES, one on tax cuts to the middle class, then another on tax cuts to the wealthy.

Edit: The first vote will be to extend tax cuts for the middle class (up to $250K) The second vote will be to raise that ceiling from $250K to 1 million dollars. The second is an overt compromise to the GOP. The Dems will vote against the second.

Reid will dare the GOP to not vote for the middle class tax cut. If the GOP does not vote yes, nothing will get passed - and all the tax cuts expire at the end of the year. And the GOP can take it up again in the new Congress on their own.

So Harry Reid has taken a stand, and it's up to the GOP now.

Magic?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69929420101103

Obama confessed to having suffered a long night on Tuesday as Republicans seized control of the House of Representatives and made gains in the Senate, handing him the biggest defeat of his career and threatening to block his agenda for the second half of his term.

"I feel bad," the subdued president said when asked to reflect on the drubbing his party took at the polls.


Republicans picked up at least 60 House seats in the biggest shift in power since Democrats gained 75 House seats in 1948. The election outcome put pressure on Obama to make a mid-course correction as he seeks to reduce the 9.6 percent jobless rate and prepares to seek re-election in 2012.



Interesting that Democrats are disappearing in Southern states and some still feel the GOP is party in trouble

The middle class isnt getting poorer. The Democrats are just lowering the value of Rich. the truth is that if people who make $250k are now considered rich then the rich are getting a lot poorer.

Well actually it doesnt. The biggest joke of an assumption is that you can raise taxes on job creators and that it wont negatively effect jobs.

No they dont. The jobs that service basic needs are not ones that are in jeopardy.

Unemployment benefits as economic stimulus and unemployment reducer.

You can't make this stuff up....

You say these things as they were factual.

Cutting taxes on the wealthy increases gov't income.

Tax payments by millionaire households more than doubled to $273 billion in 2007 from $132 billion after the tax rates were cut in 2003. The number of tax returns with $1 million or more in annual reported income doubled over that period thanks to the strong economic rebound.

You seem to fail to grasp the fact the a stronger economy is a far greater generator of govt revenues than raising tax rates. That is a fact.

Yes they just hoard it, no business are created by people who make more than $250k a year. Only govt spending creates jobs. :wf

What?

There is a looming depression because unemployed people arent getting $300 a week?

The problem with your theory is that all the jobs you believe are saved are all govt subsidized or in no danger anyway. The food production business is already massively subsidized by the govt, public utilities as well. The oil industry is hardly hurting (gas stations).

Yes the Democrats as usual have put their agenda ahead of the American people. Too bad they didnt see fit to temporarily extend all of the cuts so we could avoid all the issues that will be created and let the newly elected Congress tackle the issue.

Of course the GOP will reject this foolish plan and then simply bring back the legislation right after the 1st of the year and force the Democrats to kill it.

Job creators in where India, China, Vietnam, Brazil, where ever labor can be arbitraged? Your logic is based upon old-school economcis which do not exist in the 21st century. Lowering the taxes on job creators simply means more money into the pockets of the CEO's.. They will continue outsourcing and using H1B labor. These lost jobs actually are the consumers of their own or customers products.. It is a game of financial musical chairs and at the end those at the VERY VERY top will have theirs and the rest will fend for the crumbs. The race to the bottom continues.

Thank You. Cannon, that covers the responses to about 5 of your entries above.

Oh, do you think the republicans would agree to only extending the tax cut for those making $500k etc. a year? I don't think so. They care about the rich. No matter the ceiling, the fact is that they care most about the rich. This is a chance for the President to show the American people exactly that point. Hell, if he offers a 1 mil/ year ceiling, I don't think they'd agree to it. They care most about the rich, and that separation in ideology needs to be clear for the voters in 2012. The amount of American people that want to extend this for those over $250k? The percentage is in the 30's range. He needs those 60 some odd percent of the population to know exactly which party (more importantly which Presidential Candidate in 2012) agrees with them on this. Let the Republicans keep digging their grave..... Dumbo, please don't stop them.

The level of manipulation you are willing to go to is seemingly limitless. Someone making 250k is middle class? That's as manipulative as it gets. They ain't middle class. You can call them what you want. If you really care about them a lot, then, you can try to continue their tax break by cutting a deal with the president. I'm pretty sure he'd go up to at least $500k. He might go up to Shumer's 1 mil. Point is that I think you guys care the most about the people making millions a year. That's what this President needs to expose (if he really wants to run again.) What do you think the percentages are when you ask the American people if they want the tax cuts extended for people making over a million dollars a year? You really willing to go there? Well, if the guy gets smarter (I very much doubt this,) then that's where we will be headed in a couple weeks. My guess is the guy will extend them for everyone (for a limited time.) If your party didn't agree, then, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing.

is it individuals who make 250k or more? or couples who make 250k or more jointly?

If its the latter... that is definately middle class.

It is families. In some parts of the country that is barely middle class. Frisco, NYC, Boston, most of Jersey.

yeah i've never heard of anyone making 125k a year being called "rich" before.

tho I really wish i was making 125k and I'd feel rich as a single 27 year old with only a dog and car to take care of!

Yep, whatever it is, it isn't middle class. 200k/ year for someone single, and 250k/ year for a couple....Neither situation is middle class. Fact is that (you'd see) that if we lift the number up, the Republicans still won't agree to doing away with the tax cut for the people making over a ceiling. If the President will allow it to go there, you'll see this.

Right there are so many non-manufacturing companies outsourcing, especially small businesses that are the ones most injured by the tax hike.

This theory is so idiotic. It is like saying the NBA shouldnt get more money for its tv rights in the next contract because LeBron James will then make more. And everybody hates LeBron and those nasty CEO's.

There is no use trying to talk sense to you and Riot because you just wont admit you dont know what you are talking about regardless of how much evidence there is to the contrary of your point

You live in LA and think 250k a year (pretax by the way) is rich? I guess you dont get out much. Let me ask you a question since you are so much for equality. Why should people who earn good salaries or create jobs via investment in small business have their taxes increased when everyone elses arent? They already pay a higher percentage than you. They already make more of a contribution than you. Why the discrimination?

No one should get a tax raise during a recession. I dont know how we got here but for some reason people believe that raising taxes on the "rich" will somehow make their lives better. it wont. Raising taxes almost never makes anyones lives better except politicians who get an influx of cash to waste.

Dude... You been locked up in a barn or something? Anything white collar non upper management is a target for outsourcing and has been. Tech Jobs, accounting, drafting, engineering, help desk, Architectural , medical billing even ****ing XRAY Techs the list goes on and on and on. The dirty little secret that you don't hear about it in the media is because they are amongst the biggest culprits.

FTFY but believe it or not I agree 100%

Secret outsourcing? Perhaps you should ask yourself why these compaies are doing so. Perhaps the already excessive tax rates in the US as well as the upcoming health care requirements and Sarbannes-Oxley regulations are making it too expensive to do business in this country? Of course we should raise taxes and make it worse...

LOL.. It has been going on for a decade.... And no we shouldn't raise taxes. It is clearly decisions at the top of big business to put as much money in their own pocket as fast as they can. Strip mining the American economy.

I cant defend many of the practices of big business however the reality is that many of the political friends of theirs are on the left side of the aisle, not just the right.

Cannon... Right / Left / Center doesn't matter. The process is broke as everyone in any kind of power (business/politics) is out for ONLY themselves and not the people they serve. Bush was a puppet for the Anti-Christ Cheney for 8 years, Obama is a puppet for the left wing agenda. The scary part is I can't fathom the catalyst to fix it.. A funny thing is I thought Ross Perot was a ****ing goofball back in the day.. He was spot on about the Giant Sucking Sound his timing and location were off...

The GOP will be the party in power when the rural poor secede from the Union :tro:

I laughed. :tro:

Yes, unemployment dollars DO immediately help the economy, help keep joblessness down, and you might refer to any Economics 101 class to point that out to you.

If you want to take the strange position that immediate infusion of cash into an economy does not help it in a recession, please quote us an explaination from an economist alot smarter than yourself.