Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 676346)

What if we're all actually wrong about Zenyatta and she's actually better than we think? That's what sucks about the way they're campaigning her.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that she was kept on the sidelines as a 2-year-old and for almost all of her 3-year-old season - while a filly her own age (Rags To Riches) won the Belmont over Curlin and Hard Spun and than got hurt before they could ever meet.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that her trainer scratched her the morning of the race against favored Nashoba's Key because he felt she wasn't quite 100% from missing a few days of training weeks prior.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that Nashoba's Key died in a stall accident - which meant Zenyatta never took over her division in So. Cal - she merely inherited it from a dead horse who had obliterated everything she faced on synthetic and totally wiped out everything but the ducking Zenyatta within that division.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that the Breeders Cup was, for the first time in history, held two straight years at Santa Anita - on that terrible Pro-Ride junk - and that every Eastern dirt horse who went out there failed, most of them failed miserably.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that her trainer scratched her out of a stakes race at Churchill the morning of the race because the track was wet.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that her stablemate Life Is Sweet was offered up for the Hollywood Gold Cup and had to deal with Rail Trip when crushed on a speed-biased track - while she was safely at home in her stall.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that her competition has mostly royally sucked.

It's not Zenyatta's fault that the Clement L. Hirsch and Ladies Secret are no longer Handicaps. Azeri had to give 19lbs away to an already Grade 1 stakes placed horse when she won the Hirsch. Azeri carried 12lbs more than multiple Grade 1 winner Elloluv and 10lbs more than Grade 1 winner and Breeders Cup Distaff 3rd Got Koko in the Ladies Secret when she finished a close 3rd to the two of them. Zenyatta was level weight in those former handicaps against an alw horse in Anabaa's Creations. She would have had to give Anabaa's Creation 25lbs in weight if those two races were still handicaps and she was treated as harshly by the racing secretary as Azeri was.


Shirreffs is on the easy path to the Breeders Cup and he will have this bitch cranked up to the moon for that race - and assuming he chooses the Classic over the Distaff (a no-brainer last year - doubtful this year) he's just going to hope she falls into a Breeders Cup win the same way his Giacomo fell into a Derby win against Afleet Alex and Bellamy Road. He's two more paid workouts away from a possible daring half court heave at history. I think God is on her side.

Originally Posted by DaTruth (Post 676451)

She will probably beat Rachel at 10 furlongs. Rachel isn't as good as she was last year and it would be a good time to catch her.

Originally Posted by copying (Post 676523)

I hope you don't think it was the surface that did those easterners in -- more likely the competition. And now you offer up Azeri to back up your argument. I remember all the NYers panned Get Koko as that years' Anabaa's Creation. It may take you a few years, but eventually you'll admit greatness when it's far gone.

Originally Posted by copying (Post 676523)

I hope you don't think it was the surface that did those easterners in -- more likely the competition. And now you offer up Azeri to back up your argument. I remember all the NYers panned Get Koko as that years' Anabaa's Creation. It may take you a few years, but eventually you'll admit greatness when it's far gone.

Originally Posted by the_fat_man (Post 676131)

RA had HER chance to show up, at OP. She didn't. Her connections had committed to it. They reneged. Z's connections haven't committed to anything at SAR. The RA crew can spin it any way they want but why should she get a 2nd chance? Especially when giving her ANOTHER opportunity would require shipping your horse cross country. The RA crew can whine all they want; that's about all that having your horse NOT SHOW UP gets you.

Funny how the **** gets spun around here.

Originally Posted by Merlinsky (Post 676549)

I don't care what anybody says. It's pretty darn impressive when someone learns to type while wearing a straight jacket.

RA spent 5 months as a barn potato and Jackson let $5 mil lure him into doing something stupid. There's no point in marching your horse toward a major confrontation they're not fit for just because the mob in the colliseum wants to turn their thumbs up or down.

Originally Posted by Theatrical (Post 676551)

Her owner could have said "no" from the get go. He didn't.

Originally Posted by Merlinsky (Post 676552)

Jess Jackson could've said a lot of things, things that made logical, coherent sense, but he doesn't. He's not so good with the brain+filter situation. It's not news.

As if saying no in the beginning wouldn't have drawn a different criticism. You'd rather be calling him chicken instead of being strung along and getting your hopes up? Under what circumstances would people have been happy? The Apple Blossom was never a good idea. Better he figured that out before the race than after. Of all the crazy things he says and does, there are worse to focus on.

Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 676558)

lol

so, because jess jackson wanted rachel to be ready, and she couldn't be, that reflects poorly on the horse?! you people are aware, aren't you, that you're talking about a horse? she had no say in the schedule he tried to make her fit. give me a break here, people! are you sure, those of you who keep going on and on about this one race, that you know anything about horses?
bash jess all you want, he's the one who deserves it.

Originally Posted by Theatrical (Post 676560)

I'm bashing no one and I don't believe I have brought Rachel into this, other than Mr. Jackson is her owner. This has nothing to do with her. Nothing. It is about the choices her owner made for her.

As far as what I know about horses, I am a breeder and have been for over 40 years. I made an observation about the owner of a horse who had the opportunity to assess his filly's condition and chose to be wishy washy about it. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the filly.

Originally Posted by Theatrical (Post 676551)

Her owner could have said "no" from the get go. He didn't.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 676532)

Got Koko was that year's Anabaa's Creation?

You made this up, right?

Got Koko was the first filly (and only 3rd ever) to sweep the La Canada series in nearly 20 years. She won the Gr 1 7f La Brea, the Gr 2 8.5f El Encino, and the Gr 2 9f La Canada in succession. In the final leg, she defeated Sightseek, who was probably the only other contemperary mare that could hold a candle to Azeri.

Of course, this all took place before the Clement Hirsch that year and, of course, Got Koko came right back to beat Azeri in the Lady's Secret.

Originally Posted by miraja2 (Post 676120)

This question is perfectly logical, but it is almost ridiculous to ask at this point.

Originally Posted by copying (Post 676569)

I didn't say Got Koko was that years' AC -- All the easterners were saying that. They were saying Azeri was beating the same old overmatched allowance horses over and over again -- the same argument they now use against Zenyatta.

Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 676604)

but....it's true.


keep reading from those with a zenyatta bias how she travelled to the ab to take on rachel as tho it was a brave act. john shirreffs is a smart man, and a savvy trainer. he hasn't enjoyed the successes he's achieved by being otherwise. what better time to take on a good horse than after a long layoff? shirreffs had every advantage going in, and he knew that. he had a horse that hadn't missed a beat, who hadn't had a tough season the previous year. everything was right for him, and wrong for rachel-it's so obvious.
the fact they haven't done anything different with the mare since, and won't, is also abundantly clear. she won't leave california. i'll be surprised at this point if she leaves before becoming a broodmare.

Originally Posted by copying (Post 676633)

But now, after Azeri's been retired, those same east coast elite acknowledge Azeri's greatness and say maybe those fields she beat were not so bad after all. They will eventually with Zenyatta too -- it just will be years after she is retired.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer (Post 676640)

This is likely.

Because years from now people will say things like, "hey, that 3rd-level allowance race that Anabaa's Creation ran 5th in before almost beating Zenyatta wasn't so bad after all, right? And those 15 straight races that Dance To My Tune lost before almost beating Zenyatta weren't so bad, right? I mean, give her some credit, she won a race in 2007!"

Problem is that Got Koko and Sightseek were actually good horses with proven records. Trying to compare them to the garbage that Zenyatta has beaten is laughable. And to try to think that "years after Zenyatta is retired," everyone will forget just what was behind Zenyatta is even more hilarious.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer (Post 676640)

This is likely.


Problem is that Got Koko and Sightseek were actually good horses with proven records. Trying to compare them to the garbage that Zenyatta has beaten is laughable. And to try to think that "years after Zenyatta is retired," everyone will forget just what was behind Zenyatta is even more hilarious.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 676699)

There were few bigger fans of Azeri than I was but she never beat a field as good as last years classic, not even close really.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer (Post 676707)

Top to bottom talent-wise, of course not.

But it's impossible to compare what Azeri beat on the dirt to what last year's Classic, the country's biggest "dirt" race, included in terms of talent when it was full of mostly non-dirt horses and was not run on dirt. Part of the game, yadda, yadda, I know that and have no problem with it. But saying that Gio Ponti and Twice Over rounding out a trifecta is better than anything Azeri beat in a race is an unsustainable comparison, because put all of them on the Churchill dirt, and you've got a good race, and then 20 lengths back to everything Zenyatta beat.

But again -- sticking the head in the sand and hanging a hat on one career race to try to prove eternal greatness just won't cut it....didn't cut it for HOY of the last year and won't cut it for future thinking on Zenyatta, which is why races throughout the year matter, and why these garbage races against garbage opponents don't stack up at ALL to what Azeri did.

As Doug said earlier, and I've said probably here and several other places in the recent past -- she may well be GREAT. She may well be one of the greatest horses to ever live; she certainly seems to have the talent to fulfill all of the hyperbole and mouth breathing we hear from her fans -- but I want to see it, I don't just want to take everyone's word for it. And so far, she has about 1.5 races in her cap that actually make her important, and a bunch of other ones in which she beat horses I would have a chance of dead-heating with jumping in a potato sack.

Show me how great she is. Alas, being undefeated is what they clearly care about more at this point in time, and that's a feat to be commended -- but it doesn't make people wondering about her rightful place in history "haters," it makes them analytical because we actually want to see something great before we anoint something great.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 676739)

well she will get a chance to prove something to you on dirt at CD like you say. I have no clue what you would say if she wins, or heck runs great in that race because no 6 year old has ever won it, heck no horse has ever won 3 breeders cup races, heck no horse has even who two different events in the BC, and surely none has done it over two different surfaces (syn and dirt, or turn and dirt).

Heres hoping, would be the meltdown of all meltdowns on this board.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 676739)

well she will get a chance to prove something to you on dirt at CD like you say. I have no clue what you would say if she wins, or heck runs great in that race because no 6 year old has ever won it, heck no horse has ever won 3 breeders cup races, heck no horse has even who two different events in the BC, and surely none has done it over two different surfaces (syn and dirt, or turn and dirt).

Heres hoping, would be the meltdown of all meltdowns on this board.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 676761)

And what will you say when she doesn't even run in the BCC?

Or should I say if she doesn't.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 676772)

that its too bad she got hurt...that would be the only reason.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 676772)

that its too bad she got hurt...that would be the only reason.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 676855)

You must forgive Indian Charlie, I'm beginning to wonder if he is indeed a Zenyatta fan, he mentions her in more posts per capita than just about any other poster here. It's not even close between him and Smooth Operator.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 676866)

Not only are you delusional, you also have very poor math skills.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 676867)

And what the hell do you mean by per capita?

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 676699)

There were few bigger fans of Azeri than I was but she never beat a field as good as last years classic, not even close really.