Munnings was never the same, maybe its the off tracks, but never the same...

If you have a bucket that holds 2 gallons, and another bucket that holds 5 gallons, how many buckets do you have?

Two

You're an Idiot!

So RA was to be punished in 2009 for time taken off in 2010? In the debate for 2009 HOY, all that matters is what happened in 2009.

I posted this on another board, but the cut to Moss at the point in Jackson's speech where he basically said, "look, can we talk and work a race out," was so telling - Moss was po'ed, no smile, no nothing.

And as classy as he and Sheriffs have always been about this mare, his comments afterwards about them having to beat her "by proxy" were dead classless as well.

That really sucks. Because all year long, before the HOY awards, Jackson praised Z and her team, while Moss and company stuck to their guns. It's not that in general that I"m upset about, since I think the right horse won and everyone else has to deal with it -- it's the fact that a general total class act like Moss turns into a completely different person when he loses to a horse who ran a better campaign. She beats the boys once before the Classic? She wins. She runs on the sloppy CD track and wins? She wins. They have nobody to blame but themselves for this loss -- and his total lack of humility tonight was very surprising to me...totally not what I expected from an otherwise out-of-this-world classy team.

Not at all ...

I simply said Zenyatta was criticised for the leisurely layoff the year before and Rachel will have the same layoff from last year to this year ...

I do not believe EITHER should be criticised for it ...

See the difference ???

Read the first quote in my sig--it will tell you all you need to know about these clowns.

I remember when I first started discussing horses with people on the Internet, in the 90s. The people in CA were not allowed to have simulcasting from out-of-state, so because all they knew was CA, CA racing had to be the alpha and omega of racing.

At least they had the "mushroom defense"--they were kept in the dark and fed BS constantly. What excuse these people have, I don't know.

But, East coast racing sucked then!

It is a great quote, but it does not apply to me, whom I am sure the reference was to ...

After the Woodward of Sept 09, the remainder of Sept, Oct 09, Nov 09 and Dec09 are of course, all of THAT year ...

The time mentioned off in '10 was to correlate the total time off for Rachel's layoff in relation to Zenyatta's ...

Nothing clownish ..

The original poster and I apparently had some communication problems ...

Nowhere did I mention " punishing " a HOY ..

Wittgenstein is also an interetsing reference--ComStu 250 if I am remembering right ..

I am from New York ...

I addressed nothing to you. Whining about layoffs is for dopes, period. Horses are laid off as long as their connections feel is necessary. No one here has the slightest basis to second guess such a decision.

What relevance any of this has to HOY is beyond me.

I was responding to Da Truth who apparently found some relevance , I didn't either ...

Fair enough on the response not to me ..

You were the one who found it relevant. Why else would you even bring it up mere hours after RA was crowned HOY.

OK by me. And to be complete, layoffs could be relevant to HOY if you are laid off so long you can only make 3 or 4 races that year. In that case you are backing yourself into a corner.

But I don't get the excitement about RA laying off, for example. If she needs to wait until June to come back, then she does. As I said, that might make a 2010 HOY difficult, unless she came back ran lights out in some top tier races.

Zenyatta's problem was that she ran in only one race that anyone outside of insular CA racing fans cares about--and that one, like all the rest, was on plastic. It was just too limited a campaign.

By contrast, RA ran in several races that everybody cares about--the Oaks, the Preakness, the Haskell, the Woodward. Everybody knows these races.

And they are on dirt.

To me, that is pretty much all there was to this choice. The rest was hot air.

Really I didn't--I mentioned the layoff parallel in reference to my post that Rachel might not be ready for a meeting with Zenyatta in the Apple Blossom , and I said that the layoff would be the same that Zenyatta was criticised for the year before..

You brought up the HOY reference .. And it has nothing to do with hours after Rachel's win ... I havbe NO wish to take anything from Rachel

I am looking forward to their meeting and stated that Rachel likely will not be in the Apple Blossom because she needs more time ...

Read my posts ..

Sorry I do not wish to argue any more than I wish to be misinterpreted ..

That's all folks ..

There is no " excitement " for me in Rachel's layoff, and if these two meet, it should be under optimum conditions for both ...

I was merely responding--and NOT defensively--that Zenyatta got some flak for her delay ...

I have never refuted that Rachel ran more, beat males more and did it on dirt at age three .. She was legit to be a contender and a winner of HOY ...

I can pick apart some of her races and do not agree with some of the analyses of said races, and I cared at least as much for the Alabama, the Travers, and the JCGC as the ones you mentioned , but that is another issue ..

As a Zenyatta fan--called a tard by some here--I am realistic enough to accept a thinner campaign on a non-traditional surface as a valid critique ..

Though Zenyatta may be flawless, the pathway to accolades was not ..

I would have preferred more dirt, more males , more cowbell, but I had no hand in it ...

Uh, tector, there were at least two Euros which won Cup races on Pro-Ride last year... and others which ran well … including the one (Twice Over) which was no match for Big Mama in the Classic.

Btw, the same TO which beat '08 BCC winner Raven's Pass that year in Europe.

A couple terrific performances on Championship Saturday … while the so-called 'Horse-of-the-Year' was lying in her stall getting fat...

Yer a nitwit

Well, I can't speak for others, all I can say is that I never criticized the layoff for Zenyatta per se. But it did leave them just a few races, and they chose those races way too conservatively, until the last one.

Really, there are only a handful of non-turf (can't call them dirt) CA races that have cachet throughout the country--and part of that cachet relates back to when they were contested on dirt:

Big Cap
SA Derby
Hollywood Gold Cup
Pacific Classic

The Ancient Title and Goodwood used to be held in very high regard as BC preps, on dirt. Now they are only relevant for a plastic BC, which I don't expect to see again soon, especially if SA goes back to dirt (but then both of these preps will be back on dirt, too).

That's about it. The Malibu, Pat Obrien, etc--some people know them, some don't. And the whole slew of "san" and "santa" races are just a jumble to people who didn't grow up watching them. And almost nobody ships into them. Everybody ships to the Haskell, for example.

Is there a point to this? Let's see if anybody, besides you, can see it.

Other than the fact that we've been spending the last two years running our country's biggest "dirt" race over a course that not only disadvantages dirt horses, but makes it so they literally cannot win? That we're running our country's biggest "dirt" race over a course that turf horses are willing to run on, when they wouldn't be entering were the biggest "dirt" race actually run on dirt?

Outside of that, I see no problems with it.

I grew up watching a lot of them but the sans and santas do smudge together...

The big ones sans Derby you mentioned would have been a good pinata for Zenyatta to take a stab at ---lots of quality history and prestige ...

Shipping to California does seem to be a thing of the widening past..

Bid and even Cigar seem light years off now ...

Sadly agree ...

considering how many times rachel ran last year, and where, versus how many times zenyatta ran, and where-i don't see how you can compare layoff times.

Again , thinking outside the box, i think Gio Ponti was horse of the year. He only won two awards last night, first time in thirty years.

you could pick apart the classic field as well. the voters saw the year for what it was, and voted accordingly. luckily they aren't biased towards california, and think everything that occurs there is so much better than everywhere else.

much as i like him, i have to disagree. thought he had a good year, and was one of the best, but no way he had a better year than the filly.

When is Jackson's next press conferance to tell the world that RA is racing in Japan and Europe this year.

You can run , but you cant hide!

I but RA will not even consider a race at 1 1/4 this year. Yes skipping the Classic against the world.

Lets hope that both are able and still want to run when they meet.

Besides the classic I think RA will run in a 1 1/4 race this year. I just hope it's against a competitive field. We can all say that she can do 1 1/4. But until she does we don't really know.

When did he have a moment to show his true colors in 2009? They ran a cupcake campaign and stayed at home. They had complete control of the situation. Last night they didn't.

What was evident last night was that two filthy rich control freaks didn't get their way.

Moss looked and sounded so very bitter. Very small of him, IMHO.

i would like to see either filly run against him on the grass,his surface.

good luck with that.

Nothing like a sore loser.

I don't want to read this whole thread and I am sure smarter people than me have pointed out Jackson's statement.

I am not sure he is saying he does not feel Zenyatta is worthy of racing RA or that he won't have any inclination to make it happen?

We’re hoping that each horse, taking it’s course, may win their way to an ultimate match and maybe we can work toward that."

i'm sure he means that he has races in mind for his horse, and assumes the mosses have a definite path in mind for their horse as well...and that maybe they'll end up at the same spot at the same time-the bc at churchill perhaps? i doubt he feels zenyatta is unworthy-but i am sure that rachel is his first and last concern, not anyone else's plans for his horse.

It seemed to me that a guy wouldnt say "Maybe I can speak to Jerry and see if we can make this happen" if he didn't think the two should meet. I think the only thing we know for sure is Rachel is months (like 4) away for any return to the track. They said she worked in 17..

The comment about her working in :17 was a bit frightening. What's also a little mind boggling about this whole thing is they said way back in November or December that Hot Dixie Chick is on the same schedule as RA and there's been no activity for her either. I'm a bit perplexed.

NT

You'd think this would be news.... Where did it come from? Did Jackson say this last night?

He's either playing poker with Moss, or there is no way she's coming back - 17 after 4 months off with no report of injury? Way more to it, if there's anything at all to it... She'll have a date with Curlin before they spend a breeding season getting her in race shape.

It was probably a timed gallop. He has a flair for the dramatic.