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Indian Charlie 12-10-2009 07:17 PM
Congaree wasn't good enough to overcome the 125/1 I got him for in the Derby future book right after he broke his maiden.

Awesome horse though. His derby was one of the most impressive losing performances I remember ever seeing.

I think Macho Uno was a much better horse than most people realize too. He seemed to have some mental issues, but I seem to remember that his trainer was insanely cold for about 2-3 years and finally got fired for not being able to win anything with a lot of nice stock.

miraja2 12-10-2009 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
As for Vindication .. he's in the discussion for the 3rd or 4th spot.
I think I would have him in the top 4, but I am especially surprised to see YOU give the nod to Street Sense over Vindication given your often-stated low opinion of Street Sense.
His races at AP as a 2yo were fairly unimpressive, and though he ran a very good race in a 3rd place effort at Keeneland on a surface he never liked, his CD race was the only truly superb effort of his season in my opinion.
I'd take Vindication's four races as a 2yo over Street Sense's four races.

Good list though DrugS. It makes for some good conversation.

Indian Charlie 12-10-2009 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I think I would have him in the top 4, but I am especially surprised to see YOU give the nod to Street Sense over Vindication given your often-stated low opinion of Street Sense.
His races at AP as a 2yo were fairly unimpressive, and though he ran a very good race in a 3rd place effort at Keeneland on a surface he never liked, his CD race was the only truly superb effort of his season in my opinion.
I'd take Vindication's four races as a 2yo over Street Sense's four races.

Good list though DrugS. It makes for some good conversation.
If you had to ask him who the most overrated horse of the last 15 years is, and you forced him into giving an answer, he'd almost certainly tell you Vindication.

He was the president of the anti Vindy fan club. He disliked that horse like PG1985 loves Giant's Causeway. It was almost pathological.

philcski 12-10-2009 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
Congaree wasn't good enough to overcome the 125/1 I got him for in the Derby future book right after he broke his maiden.

Awesome horse though. His derby was one of the most impressive losing performances I remember ever seeing.

I think Macho Uno was a much better horse than most people realize too. He seemed to have some mental issues, but I seem to remember that his trainer was insanely cold for about 2-3 years and finally got fired for not being able to win anything with a lot of nice stock.
He had my weight of my future book bet as well. Was my first trip to Vegas and I was determined to bet a real KY Derby futures bet (not the parimutuel crap Churchill offers) and it was the weekend Drugs mentioned, where he won an N1X only a tick slower than Point Given- I think that was the race now known as the Robert Lewis(?) Was like 50-1 or something. Still, he ran amazing in that Derby to have the lead at the 3/16ths pole. He was an awesome horse. Too bad he sucks as a sire.

Indian Charlie 12-11-2009 01:31 AM
Yeah, I was expecting a bit more from Congaree as a sire. Usually horses with his running style and quality are great sire candidates.

Much like his own sire!!

Slewbopper 12-11-2009 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
His victory over Sun King that you mentioned came before the BC. If you read my post, you'll see that I said he was dominant after the BC (that is what "subsequent" means). Perhaps "dominance" was not the best choice of words, but I do consider his post-BC performances to be extremely impressive in that he overcame an outrageously bad trip in the Donn, and then ran a very fast race in the DWC.

Congaree was certainly a very good horse who flashed brilliance at times in his career. He also threw in his share of clunkers. On a list of this nature,the consistency of a horse like Invasor puts him ahead of a horse like Congaree in my book.
Have to agree with Invasor. The only blemish on his record was a 3rd in the Dubai Derby which was followed by 6 straight G1 wins..Pim Special, Suburban, Woodward, BCC, Donn, and DWC.

Sightseek 12-11-2009 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewbopper
Have to agree with Invasor. The only blemish on his record was a 3rd in the Dubai Derby which was followed by 6 straight G1 wins..Pim Special, Suburban, Woodward, BCC, Donn, and DWC.
I think that if Congaree or M D'Oro ran against the same horses they would likely have 6 straight G1 wins too. Their records don't look as good on paper, but in reality I really do think they are better horses.

ateamstupid 12-11-2009 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Absolutely War Pass was the best.

I wasn't a big fan of his going into his 3-year-old season .. but that was more because I didn't like the way he projected as a triple crown series prospect.

However, it would be extremely foolish to deny him the honor of decades top 2yo. I think he's one of the easiest choices.

He was undefeated, his win in the Champagne was sizzlingly fast. He won the Breeders Cup Juvenile in 1:42.67 - Indian Blessing needed 1:44.73 to soundly defeat Proud Spell that same day.

Respectable precocious middle distance horses like Kodiak Kowboy and Tale of Ekati ran 3rd and 4th .. beaten 16.75 lengths and 17.50 lengths .. in an 11 horse field.

Just a mind boggling performance against the clock. War Pass's 113 Beyer that day was higher than the 112 Beyer Hard Spun ran for finishing 2nd in the BC Classic that day .. both races used the exact same variant.

As for Vindication .. he's in the discussion for the 3rd or 4th spot.

Like War Pass, he was also 4-for-4 at two, and with two stakes wins. He won the Grade 3 Ky Cup Juvenile over a terrible field in very slow fashion - but had to overcome some trouble.

In the Breeders Cup Juvie ... Vindication had a great trip and needed 1:49.61 to score. By comparison, Storm Flag Flying won the Juv Fillies by a half length in final time of 1:49.60 - Hold That Tiger ran 3rd by 5 lengths to Vindy - but had an extremely tough trip.

I think Toccet had a good case to steal the Eclipse from Vindication. He won 4 Graded Stakes as a 2yo at or beyond a mile. He took the Champagne, Laurel Futurity, won the Remsen over Empire Maker, and beat Kafwain in the Hollywood Futurity. He was a complete no show in the BC Juvie though - basically fading after a few furlongs.
Solid points, but I still see War Pass as a one-race wonder. His Champagne was a fine effort, but Pyro didn't exactly come back to light things up at three. Nor did Z Humor, Ready's Image or Majestic Warrior.

I also think Declan's Moon should be mentioned, though he always was overlooked for skipping the BC.

The Indomitable DrugS 12-11-2009 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
If you had to ask him who the most overrated horse of the last 15 years is, and you forced him into giving an answer, he'd almost certainly tell you Vindication.

He was the president of the anti Vindy fan club. He disliked that horse like PG1985 loves Giant's Causeway. It was almost pathological.
At that time ... there were a lot of silly people talking about Vindication like he was an all-time great horse.

I was one of the people who thought Toccet was slightly more deserving of the Eclipse ... but I knew he wasn't getting it .. as an extreme emphasis is placed on the BC Juvie result.

miraja2 12-11-2009 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
At that time ... there were a lot of silly people talking about Vindication like he was an all-time great horse.

I was one of the people who thought Toccet was slightly more deserving of the Eclipse ... but I knew he wasn't getting it .. as an extreme emphasis is placed on the BC Juvie result.
Aren't you guilty of putting an "extreme emphasis" on the BC Juvie by including Street Sense in the top four?
Good point about Toccet. He was a very good 2yo. I would probably put him above Street Sense as well.

RockHardTen1985 12-11-2009 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
Aren't YOU putting an "extreme emphasis" on the BC Juvie by including Street Sense in the top four?
I think its the way he won and what was behind him.

ateamstupid 12-11-2009 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985
I think its the way he won and what was behind him.
What was behind him? Circular Quay, Great Hunter, Scat Daddy, Stormello, C P West, U D Ghetto, King of the Roxy, Skip Code, Teuflesberg, Pegasus Wind, Malt Magic, Got the Last Laugh and Principle Secret?

Real murderers' row right there..

NTamm1215 12-11-2009 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid
What was behind him? Circular Quay, Great Hunter, Scat Daddy, Stormello, C P West, U D Ghetto, King of the Roxy, Skip Code, Teuflesberg, Pegasus Wind, Malt Magic, Got the Last Laugh and Principle Secret?

Real murderers' row right there..
I was just going to post that, I know at least three of those horses have started for a tag since that race.

The best of that crop was not in the field. I should stop though because I am a noted SS hater.

NT

miraja2 12-11-2009 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid
What was behind him? Circular Quay, Great Hunter, Scat Daddy, Stormello, C P West, U D Ghetto, King of the Roxy, Skip Code, Teuflesberg, Pegasus Wind, Malt Magic, Got the Last Laugh and Principle Secret?

Real murderers' row right there..
I basically agree with your point, but Circular Quay was a pretty good 2yo (not to mention the key horse for most of my big horizontal and vertical wagers that day at CD :mad: )

ateamstupid 12-11-2009 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I basically agree with your point, but Circular Quay was a pretty good 2yo (not to mention the key horse for most of my big horizontal and vertical wagers that day at CD :mad: )
I was a big fan of his, and was extremely disappointed with his three and four-year-old seasons. If they had kept him around one turn I think he might've turned out to be more than he was.

The Indomitable DrugS 12-11-2009 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid
Solid points, but I still see War Pass as a one-race wonder. His Champagne was a fine effort, but Pyro didn't exactly come back to light things up at three. Nor did Z Humor, Ready's Image or Majestic Warrior.

I also think Declan's Moon should be mentioned, though he always was overlooked for skipping the BC.
I agree that Declan's Moon is in the mix for the 4th spot.

A lot of excellent 2-year-olds come back and flop at 3. Just as some very moderate 2-year-olds will bloom into sensational 3yos and older horses.

Go back and read the press clippings about Pyro's 3yo return race... they might seem laughable now ... but he did run a really great race in his 3yo return.

War Pass might have been moved up a lot by the slop .. but his Champagne was still gigantic - and he just crushed in every race. The 3yo version of him was a total cripple.

The Indomitable DrugS 12-11-2009 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
Aren't you guilty of putting an "extreme emphasis" on the BC Juvie by including Street Sense in the top four?
Good point about Toccet. He was a very good 2yo. I would probably put him above Street Sense as well.
Yes - but Street Sense's Juvie win was gigantic ... and maybe he got the 4th spot because I didn't want it to appear like I had some personal bias against him. Which I don't.

miraja2 12-11-2009 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid
I was a big fan of his, and was extremely disappointed with his three and four-year-old seasons. If they had kept him around one turn I think he might've turned out to be more than he was.
I always really liked CQ as well. He certainly had one of the most talked about debut races in the history of this board (back in the days of oracle).
Found it: http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...=circular+quay

NTamm1215 12-11-2009 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I always really liked CQ as well. He certainly had one of the most talked about debut races in the history of this board (back in the days of oracle).
I liked him too, and he didn't turn out to be a complete disaster, just not what was expected. At least he found the Fair Grounds quite agreeable.

NT

RolloTomasi 12-11-2009 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
He was the president of the anti Vindy fan club. He disliked that horse like PG1985 loves Giant's Causeway. It was almost pathological.
...said the Pot.

RockHardTen1985 12-11-2009 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid
What was behind him? Circular Quay, Great Hunter, Scat Daddy, Stormello, C P West, U D Ghetto, King of the Roxy, Skip Code, Teuflesberg, Pegasus Wind, Malt Magic, Got the Last Laugh and Principle Secret?

Real murderers' row right there..
Tons better then Big Browns Crop.

RockHardTen1985 12-11-2009 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I basically agree with your point, but Circular Quay was a pretty good 2yo (not to mention the key horse for most of my big horizontal and vertical wagers that day at CD :mad: )
Im talking only 2 yr olds not moving forward, and they were all ok at 2.

alysheba4 12-11-2009 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I always really liked CQ as well. He certainly had one of the most talked about debut races in the history of this board (back in the days of oracle).
Found it: http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...=circular+quay
what up the oracle these days......miss that guy.

ateamstupid 12-11-2009 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985
Tons better then Big Browns Crop.
Yeah that's relevant.

miraja2 12-11-2009 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985
Tons better then Big Browns Crop.
Ummm.....okay. They are also MUCH better than the $4k claimers running in the first at Hawthorne today.....but so what?

Indian Charlie 12-11-2009 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
...said the Pot.
Nah, I didn't hate Vindy. I just thought there was a whole lot more hype to him than substance.

lemoncrush 12-11-2009 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

2yo Female: Tempera, Storm Flag Flying, Halfbrideld, You

No love for Sweet Catomine? "You" and "Tempera" were both before I started following racing closely, so I'm not sure how they compare.

I realize Sweet Catomine's campaign wasn't that lengthy, but her BC juvy filly win was really eye-catching.

Antitrust32 12-11-2009 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemoncrush
No love for Sweet Catomine? "You" and "Tempera" were both before I started following racing closely, so I'm not sure how they compare.

I realize Sweet Catomine's campaign wasn't that lengthy, but her BC juvy filly win was really eye-catching.

good call

RolloTomasi 12-11-2009 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
Nah, I didn't hate Vindy. I just thought there was a whole lot more hype to him than substance.
Well, he was sired by Seattle Slew, so perhaps he suffered from wobbler syndrome.

Indian Charlie 12-11-2009 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Well, he was sired by Seattle Slew, so perhaps he suffered from wobbler syndrome.
Ha. Good one!

I did see IC at Vinery in 2000 though, when he was a five year old.

He was pretty much the only stallion left at the farm, as most of the others had gone south for the winter breeding season. When I asked why he didn't ship, they let me see him and he looked like he was a dying horse. They weren't too sure he was going to survive.

I doubt Slew becoming a wobbler in his old age had an effect on Vindication, but who knows, maybe you are right!

He probably really was one of the all time great 2yos.

NTamm1215 12-11-2009 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemoncrush
No love for Sweet Catomine? "You" and "Tempera" were both before I started following racing closely, so I'm not sure how they compare.

I realize Sweet Catomine's campaign wasn't that lengthy, but her BC juvy filly win was really eye-catching.
Yeah, I would have given her a thought as well. Folklore was a pretty good 2YO filly as well, not terribly fast but honest. Halfbridled to me was very strong but I can agree with Tempera being rated the best based on her CA races and the BC.

NT

Indian Charlie 12-11-2009 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Yeah, I would have given her a thought as well. Folklore was a pretty good 2YO filly as well, not terribly fast but honest. Halfbridled to me was very strong but I can agree with Tempera being rated the best based on her CA races and the BC.

NT
I was going to say that in my opinion, Halfbridled was the dominant 2yo filly of this decade.

But then I remembered who trained Tempera, and reconsidered. I'm no fan of that trainer, but he's light years better now than he was back then.

Patrick333 12-11-2009 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
1st team, 2nd team, 3rd team, 4th team by division.

2yo Male: War Pass, Macho Uno, Stevie Wonderboy, Street Sense
2yo Female: Tempera, Storm Flag Flying, Halfbrideld, You
2yo Turf Male: Barbaro, Peace Rules, Interactif, Cowboy Cal
2yo Turf Female: Dreaming of Anna, J'Ray, Fantastic Filly, Riskaverse
2yo Male Sprinter: Officer, Came Home, Afleet Alex, Roman Ruler
2yo Female Sprinter: Cashier's Dream, You, Hot Dixie Chick, Gold Mover

3yo Male: Smarty Jones, Tiznow, Point Given, Bernardini
3yo Female: Rachel Alexandra, Rags To Riches, Xtra Heat, Surfside
3yo Turf Male: Kitten's Joy, Conduit, High Chaparral, Rock Of Gibraltor,
3yo Turf Female: Banks Hill, Ouija Board, Goldikova, Six Perfections
3yo Male Sprinter: Caller One, Squirtle Squirt, Lost In The Fog, Cajun Beat
3yo Female Sprinter: Xtra Heat, Indian Blessing, Madcap Escapade, Lady Tak
Older Male: Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Medaglia D' Oro, Congaree
Older Female: Zenyatta, Azeri, Riboletta, Sightseek
Older Turf Male: Fantastic Light, Leroidesanemeaux, English Channel, Kalanisi
Older Turf Female: Ouija Board, Golden Apples, Voodoo Dancer, Intercontinental
Older Male Sprinter: Kona Gold, Midnight Lute, Swept Overboard, Fabulous Strike
Older Female Sprinter: Xtra Heat, Honest Lady, Informed Decision, Kalooken Queen


2003 was the glory year for older males for going long ... you don't realize realize quite how spectacular they were until you see what followed them up and what was just before them.

The 3-year-old males are a brutal group to rate. A good case could be made for anyone of seven or eight.
Good to see Smarty Jones getting some love.:)

miraja2 12-11-2009 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick333
Good to see Smarty Jones getting some love.:)
I'm shocked that it took four pages to get around to discussing DrugS's decision to rank Smarty number one among 3yo males. If Serling was still around here, it would have only taken four seconds.

Point Given would be #1 for me.

parsixfarms 12-11-2009 02:19 PM
I haven't had a chance to think about some of these "divisions," but one notable omission: Cesario in the 3YO filly turfer division.

The Indomitable DrugS 12-11-2009 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms
I haven't had a chance to think about some of these "divisions," but one notable omission: Cesario in the 3YO filly turfer division.
There is really no way you can justify including her in the top 4.

Cesario's lone start here was a hugely impressive win in the American Oaks.

Melhor Ainda finished 2nd at 6/5 odds. She returned to run 3rd by a neck to Angera and than was 7th beaten 5 lengths in the Flower Bowl. She never won a Graded Stake race after.

The 3rd place finisher in that American Oaks was Singhalese..she was still elidgible for N1X alw races.

That field just doesn't compare well with the fields Banks Hill, Ouija Board, Goldikova and Six Perfections beat in Breeders Cup races.

Banks Hill demolished a field in the Breeders Cup Filly and Mare Turf by 5.5 lengths and ran a mind boggling 112 Beyer. Ouija Board absolutely toyed with the field in her 3yo Breeders Cup F and M Turf win. Goldikova and Six Perfections both beat males in the Breeders Cup Mile as a 3yo.

Danzig 12-11-2009 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I'm shocked that it took four pages to get around to discussing DrugS's decision to rank Smarty number one among 3yo males. If Serling was still around here, it would have only taken four seconds.

Point Given would be #1 for me.

apopleptic would be the word used to describe him if he saw it!

The Indomitable DrugS 12-11-2009 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemoncrush
No love for Sweet Catomine? "You" and "Tempera" were both before I started following racing closely, so I'm not sure how they compare.

I realize Sweet Catomine's campaign wasn't that lengthy, but her BC juvy filly win was really eye-catching.
Sweet Catomine was an excellent 2-year-old ... but it's impossible to rate her ahead of either Tempera, Storm Flag Flying, and Halfbrideld.

She has a case for the 4th spot.

I certainly favor You though. You ran 4 different Beyers between 97 and 107 as a 2yo filly...and raced against INCREDIBLE competition all year long.

Sweet Catomine only had a single Beyer higher than 91 as a 2yo filly .. and that was her real nice 3+ length victory in the BC Juvie Fillies over Balletto and Runway Model.

Balletto (the horse) never won another race. Balletto (the troll) used a picture of a Runway Model and called it herself in her fine trolling of these boards.

RockHardTen1985 12-11-2009 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I'm shocked that it took four pages to get around to discussing DrugS's decision to rank Smarty number one among 3yo males. If Serling was still around here, it would have only taken four seconds.

Point Given would be #1 for me.

Point Givens easy at 1 and Drugs is a bit confused here, Bernardini 2....

Danzig 12-11-2009 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985
Point Givens easy at 1 and Drugs is a bit confused here, Bernardini 2....
no way bernardini should be ahead of tiznow.


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