Grade 1's are kind of irrelevant when it comes to these two phenoms. They practically write Grade 1's just for these two.

i'm just mentioning that for hoy voting purposes. it's a shame zenyatta is most likely thru, she may have 'done enough'. but i'd like to see her get the win streak record.

And to add to that, trained by Steve Assmussen.

If they both meet in the Classic next year at CD, and if Zenyatta can maintain her form at age 6, I think people will realize just who the better filly truly is and was.

I'd take Rachel's Haskell over Zenyatta's Classic six days a week and twice on Sunday.

Thats a might big IF but hope it happens.
I'd say there is a way greater chance you'll never see either run in another race again.

Do you have a dart-board at home with a picture of Rachel Alexandra?

NT

Obcourse I don't, but I also don't feel questioning a horse even if she is loved by many if not all, a personal attack. It is a single opinion. However I have my reasons, let's see how she progresses from 3 - 4, she ran some awfully fast races from a numbers perspective that may be hard to repeat and regarding the Woodward in my opinion she looked very ordinary. Asmussen is an unknown with returning horses if one wants to use Curlin as an example, I don't rely on beyers as gospel so maybe I look at these 2 differently, one can hope both horses will meet in a race down the line. At this point barring RA improving as a 4 yr old I would say Zenyatta is a better horse, if they had both run in the classic whether it was held at CD or SA, I have no problem saying Zenyatta would have beaten her at 1 1/4.

I honestly just wish we had seen Zenyatta on dirt more often. Winning 13 of 14 races on a third surface just doesn't do much for me. Her Apple Blossom, however, was outstanding. Too bad Moss/Shireffs were chicken for the rest of her career.

Seriously do you have a mental deficiency? She was challenged by every single horse in the race and put them all way. Not only did she do this while sprinting the whole way she had to deal with a fresh Macho Again who did nothing but loaf he first 7 panels and uncorked a huge run at her. She dispatched every horse in the race and still didn't let MA go by here after the wire. Your bias for west coast racing and running on rubber and wax is getting in the way of allowing you to think clearly.

I said it earlier, I think she can be even more dominant on dirt. I agree with the assertion that Sheriff's keeping her on poly has actually kept fans from seeing how much better she could be. Look at her pedigree, and synth beyers are notoriously unreliable and unflattering, if she gets a chance next year who knows where the sky is with her.

I've read your posts and there is only one person here who has a mental deficiency.

You're out of your mind. All of your arguments are way out in left field. I really think you need to look into talking to a shrink, you've officially lost it.

Wrong

Wrong again

Can we please stop this she was "sprinting the whole way" nonsense when referring to Rachel's Woodward? Yes, the fractions that she set were fast for a 3YO filly, but she was running in a Grade I race for older horses going 9F at Saratoga. In that historical context, her opening quarter was fast, but her first half and 6F splits were about "average" for such races at Saratoga this decade (and there were 9F races run by NY-breds such as Future Prospect and Fiddlers Afleet this year at Saratoga that were faster to the half).

2002 Whitney (Left Bank): 23.0, 45.4, 1:09.1

2003 Whitney (Medaglia D'oro): 23.2, 46.4, 1:10.2

2004 Whitney (Roses In May): 22.3, 45.1, 1:08.4

2005 Whitney (Commentator): 23.2, 46.2, 1:09.3 (Ironically, many of the same people who have tried to knock Commentator on this board by arguing that he got away with soft fractions in his match-up with Saint Liam are stating that Rachel Alexandra survived a suicidal pace.)

2006 Whitney (Invasor): 23.0, 47.0, 1:11.1

2006 Woodward (Premium Tap): 23.3, 47.1, 1:11.4

2007 Whitney (Lawyer Ron): 23.4, 47.1, 1:10.1

2007 Woodward (Lawyer Ron): 23.1, 46.2, 1:10.2

2008 Whitney (Commentator): 24.0, 47.3, 1:11.4

2008 Woodward (Curlin): 22.4, 46.1, 1:09.3

2009 Whitney (Bullsbay): 23.2, 46.1, 1:10.0

2009 Woodward (Rachel Alexandra): 22.4, 46.2, 1:10.2

Are those fractions the winner's fractions or the race fractions? If it's the latter, I think that argument is spurious, at best.

They are the race fractions, many of which were attended or set by the eventual winner. Only Invasor, Curlin and Bullsbay won either of these races as "deep closers."

Many of Which? not so much buddy, she fought off EVERY horse in the race and every challenge that came at her. Which means every single horse folded in the race except her because of the PACE.

See edited response above (#59). I was referring to the other runnings of these races, not the 2009 Woodward.

On a side note, parsix, is there any history of how the track was playing on those given days from year to year? It may well prove out your theory, but I'd be interested to know what the general speed of the course was on each of those days in relation to one another.

Actually, in a trip down memory lane (seeing some of the horses that ran on the undercards of some of these Grade I standards), the only track that I would consider unusually slow for the entire day was for the 2006 Woodward (an overcast day where they sealed the track but it didn't rain). Also, the track was reverse harrowed midway through the card for the 2008 Whitney, making it much slower for the second half of the card. Looking at all the data (considering final time and quality of horses running some of the main track undercard races), you could argue that the track for this year's Woodward was certainly one of the faster racing surfaces in this sample.

2002 Whitney (appeared to be a drying-out track):

2YO MSW (Sky Mesa): 1:10.4
NW1X (Najran): 1:22.3
NW3X (Voodoo): 1:21.2
Amsterdam (Listen Here): 1:09.2

2003 Whitney (went from muddy to fast thoughout the card):

2YO MSW (Birdstone): 1:10.1
NW2L (Draw Fire): 1:23.4
NW3X (Way to the Top): 1:22
Amsterdam (Zavata): 1:08.3

2004 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:12.4; 1:12.3
NW1X allowance: 1:51.1
Amsterdam (Bwana Charlie): 1:09.2
NY-bred NW1X (Friendly Island): 1:09.4

2005 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:18.2
NW2X (Ice Wynnd Fire): 1:50.3
Test (Leave Me Alone): 1:22.3

2006 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:17.2
Test (Swap Fliparoo): 1:24

2006 Woodward:

2YO MSW: 1:19.1; 1:17.3 (Tiz Wonderful)
NW2L (Diamond Stripes): 1:50.4
Forego (Pomeroy): 1:23.1

2007 Whitney:

2YO MSW (War Pass): 1:10.1
Vanderbilt (Diabolical): 1:08.3

2007 Woodward:

2YO MSW: 1:18.1; 1:17.4
Forego (Midnight Lute): 1:21.0

2008 Whitney:

NY-bred NW1X (Benny the Waiter): 1:09.3
2YO MSW (Munnings): 1:09.4
3YO and up MSW (Joppa Flat's): 1:21.3. (All before the reverse harrow)
Vanderbilt (Abraaj): 1:10.1
Go For Wand (Ginger Punch): 1:53.4

2008 Woodward:

NY-bred NW2x (Rollers): 1:09.2
NW2L allowance: 1:09.3
2YO MSW (Hello Broadway): 1:16.4
Forego (First Defense): 1:21.2

2009 Whitney:

NW2L claimer (Brecciate): 1:09.4
NY-bred mdn clm (Afrikaner): 1:16.3
Test (Flashing): 1:22.2

2009 Woodward:

25K starter allowance (Starforaday): 1:15.0
2YO MSW: 1:23.3 (Callide Valley); 1:23.4 (Gun Rock)
NW1X (Mesa Sunrise): 1:15.0
Forego (Pyro): 1:21.2

Every challenge? Look, I was cheering for her every step of the way, but that was D'atara and Past the Point running with her early. Enough said there.

She had enough to hold off Macho Again and Bullsbay with a final 8th in 12 4/5.

Would she have held off Summer Bird a week prior? Guess we'll never know that. Kudos to Jackson for picking the right spot.

Is this Jerry Bailey? Basically the exact same thing he said verbatim following the Classic on Saturday.

That's funny, but no. He really said that. My racing IQ just got hammered.

Totally different dynamics.

Rachel Alexandra was given ZERO breathers in the Woodward. None. She was running hard from start-to-finish. It doesn't matter who was running with her. Fast early is fast early. There's no way you can say she would of undergone similar pressure in the Travers.

And to be annoying... Past The Point loves Saratoga. Bullsbay was in career form at Saratoga. Macho Again is a hard-knocking elder who needs a pace setup to win... which he got, yet he still couldn't do it.

It's horseracing, you fight off challenges don't you if you are a good horse? I suggest putting down the pom poms for a sec and try to look at things objectively.

What was the alternative, to have riders let her cruise out on an easy lead and hand it to her on a platter? Because it's Rachel and not say Well Armed? Let's get real here it's horseracing, you race to win not finish 2nd or 3rd.

I know, but to say that Rachel didn't have the worst of it in the Woodward vs. Travers is off in my opinion.

That's impossible to say, if Rachel had raced in the Travers it's quite possible the riders would have changed their mindset in that race, something we will never know.

BWahahahhahaha, seriously? You are totally blinded by west coast and synthetic bias. You're a joke

I'm from neither coast so I wouldn't know what you mean...

He's actually not a west coast or synthetic guy. for some reason once Summer Bird won the Belmont he started hating Rachel and then when Rachel kicked SB's butt in the Haskell it just got worse and worse.

I agree with him on Summer Bird though, he's a real nice colt, though he's totally in Rachel's shadow.

There is Peppers Prides record!

I guess I am improving in your eyes, alot better than being called a Chauvinist. Here is an emoticon :p

$1.5 Million race at Sam Houston
 

She's done.....Unless... They consider Mattress Mac's offer :rolleyes:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...enyatta-rachel

* How did the horses who went out early with Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward do?

* How did the closers who sat furthest off of the early pace do?

You trap yourself a lot of times when you try and compare one-turn races with two-turn races on the same card. There are weather related factors that can screw you up.

Both the Preakness and Woodward were examples of VERY fast early paces that favored closers. Just as Zenyatta had to deal with VERY slow paces that didn't favor closers in the two races she earned the Beyers in the high 90's and barely beat allowance horses on losing streaks.

As for Commentator, he got away with absolute murder in his 2nd Whitney win .. in his first Whitney win he got no early pressure and steadily picked up the tempo in a very fast race.

simply a publicity stunt

Da' Tara ran his typically poor race in the Woodward. He was eased in his race before the Woodward. He was loose on the lead in a recent allowance race and folded badly. Rachel's presence really had little to do with his weak result.

Past the Point is clearly not the same horse that he was last year. If he was, he would have won the recent Bold Ruler, at his preferred 7F on dirt. He set a faster pace last year outrunning Wanderin' Boy early and held on. That he was done on the turn this year only further supports the conclusion that he's not as good this year as last.