Originally Posted by Cardus

This is so divorced from reality, I'd be embarrassed to post the above.

Let's put aside his character: he might be a "truly great" person in the industry. I take it that you mean that he is a person with exceptional values. That's great, the industry needs more of this.

"Since coming to this country?" He arrived in Burbank, CA at the age of 11!! Invoking someone's immigration into the United States and subsequent professional success is usually reserved for someone who enters at least in a little later in life and creates something life-changing. I don't see how arriving in 1964 -- he was born in March 1953, according to the NTRA -- and finding a modicum of success decades later makes him a "genius."

Is he sui generis because he trained and drove his standardbreds before becoming a Thoroughbred trainer? That could be the case, but from my research, that's not apparent. Guts was a really nice pacer -- I remember that name, Meadowlands Pace winner, perhaps? -- but what else did he accomplish in Harness racing that brought him to the precipice of "genius?"

If he is indeed a "genius," please inform the NTRA ASAP. From his NTRA bio, a career highlight was Golden Doc A's 4th place finish in the 2008 Kentucky Oaks. Alright, if you had the superfecta, you might disagree with this post.

Speaking of Time finished 8th in the 2008 B.C. Ladies Classic. And if she had finished in the money, on what pedastal would Abrams currently rest with you?

I have no agenda here -- who could have an agenda when discussing Barry Abrams, anyway -- and I wish his horse well if she runs in both Breeders' Cup races, but the facts are the facts.

Originally Posted by freddymo

You know you questioned Lava Man coming back into training wondering (rightfully so) what the ramifications could be if he were to break down.. While I am with you that Abrams is OK running her back to back one must be somewhat consisent and suggest that if something happened to the mare in the second race the industry would be in HARMS WAY with the horsey lovers..

Is this a Lethal Heats connections are cool and Lava Man's aren't situation? I am not saying it is but it sure tastes like chicken..lol

Originally Posted by Cardus

No, it was not a lot of effort.

Don't diminish what I posted because I did a little bit of research to debunk the ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Kasept

First of all, I believe under current BC rules, he can pre-enter the 2 races but has to commit on entry day to one or the other. Then even if he could run in both, if you heard him today, he explained the circumstances under which he would do it.. a troubled, undemanding trip in the Distaff. It's a diabolically brilliant idea because it promotes talk about Unusual Heat and how durable and versatile his offspring are...

And a Lethal Heat running on consecutive days and what's going on with Lava Man is apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by Cardus

This is so divorced from reality, I'd be embarrassed to post the above.

Let's put aside his character: he might be a "truly great" person in the industry. I take it that you mean that he is a person with exceptional values. That's great, the industry needs more of this.

"Since coming to this country?" He arrived in Burbank, CA at the age of 11!! Invoking someone's immigration into the United States and subsequent professional success is usually reserved for someone who enters at least in a little later in life and creates something life-changing. I don't see how arriving in 1964 -- he was born in March 1953, according to the NTRA -- and finding a modicum of success decades later makes him a "genius."

Is he sui generis because he trained and drove his standardbreds before becoming a Thoroughbred trainer? That could be the case, but from my research, that's not apparent. Guts was a really nice pacer -- I remember that name, Meadowlands Pace winner, perhaps? -- but what else did he accomplish in Harness racing that brought him to the precipice of "genius?"

If he is indeed a "genius," please inform the NTRA ASAP. From his NTRA bio, a career highlight was Golden Doc A's 4th place finish in the 2008 Kentucky Oaks. Alright, if you had the superfecta, you might disagree with this post.

Speaking of Time finished 8th in the 2008 B.C. Ladies Classic. And if she had finished in the money, on what pedastal would Abrams currently rest with you?

I have no agenda here -- who could have an agenda when discussing Barry Abrams, anyway -- and I wish his horse well if she runs in both Breeders' Cup races, but the facts are the facts.

Originally Posted by freddymo

Steve who the F is Abrams fooling with these ridiculous Unusual Heat's.. Have a heart if racing needed a joker they would have hired Cesar Romero.. Please Unusual Heat..Chuck you lookin for a Swiss Yoddler?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you kidding? Unusual Heat is a tremendous stallion.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you kidding? Unusual Heat is a tremendous stallion.

Originally Posted by Cardus

And if Abrams made him a stallion, in what way?

Originally Posted by freddymo

Tremendous like Speightstown? Tremendous like Pulpit? Tremendous like Street Cry? Tremendous like Smart Strike? Tremendous like Indy? Tremendous like King? Tremendous like Gone West Seeking etc etc .. He has sired a bunch that have beaten a bunch of Bertrandos and Swiss Yodelers maybe a stray Cee's Tizzy.. Lets go with a excellent regional to be fair

Originally Posted by Cardus

Northern Dancer is his grandsire. That's not too bad.

And if Abrams made him a stallion, in what way?

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Uh....

When Lennyfromalibu is clear cut the best horse you've ever sired ... calling him a tremendous stallion is silly.

He gets a lot of productive Cal Bred turfers ... and he's a stallion who's benefited greatly from the synthetic invasion in So Cal.

Other than Lennyfromalibu .. who was a pretty nice turf sprinter/miler for a few races ... he's had nothing of top flight ability.

Not a single one of his top 8 earners he's sired has ever run a triple digit fig. I get that he's moved up mares ... but you have to throw something with some ability at least once before you deserve to be called a tremendous sire.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Give it a rest.

Unusual Heat's success at stud right now has everything to do with the synthetic surface invasion in California.

Back when I was young, California racing was always king when it came to dirt sprinters. They'd almost always kick the ass of Eastern sprinters when they'd ship. A big emphasis was placed on early speed .. and the Cal breeding program reflected that.

Unusual Heat was a Euro import. He ran fast figs in America - and Abrams basically claimed a horse with a huge glowing "For Sale" sign .. got 2 whole races out of him .. and got lucky with him as a stud thanks to synthetic tracks. The comment read "returned lame" in his 2nd start off the claim when he was back in for a tag. Abrams had him sound for a whole 19 days.

Here's a cut of form from some claimers turned stallions. I included Cozar - he's the Unusual Heat of Presque Isle Downs .. only difference is that his offspring have to run open instead of against state breds.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How exactly do I have Freddy fooled? He's never once listened to me about anything.

You called Leathal Heat a "tremendous sire". I guess that makes him a tremendous sire who's all-time best horse is the mighty Lennyfromalibu.

But hey ... he's really good with Cal Bred turf and synthetic horses!

Originally Posted by freddymo

He gets a very high percentage of runners. many can and do earn enough to keep their owners happy. To date he is Bertrando lite..

I bet Guts in the Meadowlands pace he was a monster on mile tracks couldn't run on a half to save his life.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I was hoping not to have to do it but since none of the new porn up looks interesting and worth the time to download ....

2009 Group or Graded Stakes Turf winners by sires in North America, Europe, and UAE

Danehill Dancer 12
Oasis Dream 11
Galileo 11
Pivotal 9
Sadler's Wells 9
Montjeu 8
Cape Cross 7
Giant's Causeway 7
Dansili 7
High Chaparral 7
Dynaformer 6
Dalakhani 6
Monsun 6
Unusual Heat 0


Wanna know why? Because he's not a tremendous sire.

He's certainly a tremendous sire of Cal Bred turf and synthetic horses. And I will give you that he does move up his mares. Yippee.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Top 10 sires in North America by turf starts.

Dynaformer 340
Stormy Atlantic 326
Smart Strike 306
Giant's Causeway 285
Lemon Drop Kid 262
More Than Ready 261
Unusual Heat 259
Grand Slam 255
Langfuhr 251
Royal Academy 234

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well by that measure there are only 2 American sires who are any good.

Any person with reasonable judgement and cognitive skills would understand given his circumstances and the ones of the horses listed above that he wouldnt have to produce international grade 1 winners to be considered a tremendous sire. The fact that his foal crops are minute in comparison to the others:
15
29
26
22
63
68
79
61

and that his best mares wouldn't even be accepted to most of the others makes most people understand the magnitude of what he has done and how good a sire he has to be in order to produce the way he has. The fact that virtually every mare he has bred has produced their best foal when matched with him means a lot. The fact that virtually every mare sent to him is a breed to race mare, leaving him with a minute % of black type mares to produce from means a lot.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Is this supposed to be negative?

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Chuck, if only you had a time machine back then...you could have fast forwarded to 2009 and have a leading contender for the Older Male Eclipse! :D

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Bertrando lite? LOL

BTW he is ahead of Speightstown on every sire list

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He's 7th in turf starts, just three out of 5th place - and he's 4th in turf earnings.

And a lot of his offspring are running for inflated state bred purses. A lot of them aren't bad geldings in cheap claiming turf races at lesser track like I see with an oddly high number of Stormy Atlantics.