Serious Intelligence Official as in Leon Panetta? :)

There are lots of debates where we have some level of experience or can research the facts in tons of verifiable sources. Abortion, religion, the economy, govt spending, taxes, gun control, etc. Torture in regards to foreign combatants, hostages, terrorists, POW's, etc. is not one of those things. Therefore any discussion is completely opinion based which is fine but kind of superficial.

Panetta actually sided with the old CIA guys
on most of this stuff that has just come to light.
He apparently was of the opinion that the articles
detailing a bunch of stuff about "intelligence" gathering
was not at all helpful and not necessary.

If the ex-head of the CIA says waterboarding did work
in giving us some very valuable information, confirmed
by CIA guys from Bush and Clinton years...

But you are right. With all the brain research going on now
and different ways of altering neurons, you just know there
is some stuff going on we cannot fathom.

I think the only time he took that position was when he was doing his best to cover up Slick Will's BJ. Actually here's his point of view in his own words though it sounds like it could have been written by Brian,

We have preached these values to the world. We have made clear that there are certain lines Americans will not cross because we respect the dignity of every human being. That pledge was written into the oath of office given to every president, "to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." It's what is supposed to make our leaders different from every tyrant, dictator, or despot. We are sworn to govern by the rule of law, not by brute force.

We cannot simply suspend these beliefs in the name of national security. Those who support torture may believe that we can abuse captives in certain select circumstances and still be true to our values. But that is a false compromise. We either believe in the dignity of the individual, the rule of law, and the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, or we don't. There is no middle ground.

We cannot and we must not use torture under any circumstances. We are better than that.


http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/...on_torture.php

I know I don't agree with this. We are responsible for what this country's agents do. Just like the Japanese people (and the German people) should be blamed for what they allowed their leaders to do in WW2. We need to know, and we need to be responsible for it.

no joke!!

That is a ridiculous argument. We dont need to know because we cant possibly understand it. How exactly did we hold the German and Japanese people responsible for their leaders actions? Rebuild their countries and give them lots of money? Please punish me....

I did not take the quote the same way.
But we do need to take responsibilty.

I was thinking more along the lines of the CIA
is probably fiddling with brain chemistry in such a way
as to not cause irrepairable mental damage and still
get info. with stuff we would not udnerstand

While this is not directly about torture it is interesting that in dealing with real world issues that Obama walks along the same lines as the previous administration. This is one campaign promise I hope stays broken.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027091370936935.html

I'm pretty sure it started in your classes!:D

waterboarding and other assorted measures are 100 percent usefull and should be ok....gimme a break people..you dont know what intel is/was taken from these people in abue grade/or guantanamo.its part of the 'game'. you get caught.you have a choice..help or we will help you.why should we care about these combatants..as if they whould not as a whole strap a bomb to themselves and walk into wallmart and boom..just as they continue to do to our troops in iraq.this bleeding hart stuff for combat troops ie al q. is laughable..feed the homeless..start there first.......

What if the person being tortured is not a terrorist and knows nothing?

hes just phucked..wrong place at the wrong time..many in our own jails suffer the same fate..

i have a friend that was at abue grade..he is a doctor he was assisting a dentist who was giving dental care extractions ect.. the prisoners where skared shittless of the dentist.. get the whole point here..not all of the supposed bad things that happend were true.

We should use those 100% accurate gentler methods? Maybe ask them nicely if they are a terrorist?

Everybody in prison is innocent too, just ask them.

I'll bet someone read The Gulag Archipelago.

I suppose that you and Brian are more qualified than the Justice dept to determine whether or not the law was properly applied. These techniques were feeble compared to what should have been inflicted to him under Shira law. Maybe we should interrogate them under Shira law so they feel more at home? That way we dont insult their Islamic heritage.

You walk down a dangerous road when you get rid of the checks and balances and let individuals become judge, jury and executioner.

Do we really want to be a country that claims to be spreading democracy and human rights around the globe while at the same time denying these same basic ideals at our choosing?

Hard to be fighting for human rights and then denying them at the same time. No?

But the assumption that every one of the captives is a terrorist and should be punished without benefit of a trial goes against everything this country is based on. No?

Or maybe we should interrogate them under the laws of the geneva convention like we expect our boys to be interrogated.

Come on be serious. First of all no other country save Switzerland would possibly hold themselves to these standards. Plus outside of academia, no other country really would be nearly as kind as we are. Think that Russia or China holds itself to standards? Please. There is basic human rights and there are terrorists. They give up their rights not to mention that they fail to fit a standard citizen or soldier role. What exactly would you do? I just think it is laughable when someone comes up with this argument when there is no doubt about Americas role in the world. We give the IMF $100 billion yet we need to worry about what these countries think about torture? And the irony of the countries of their origin refusing to take these people back has to mean something doesnt it? Wonder why our brothers on the UN Security Council dont bring this issue up too often. Like I said before, what happens to these individuals should be carried out under whatever cloak of darkness the govt decides just like the other countries of the world.

How can they realistically go to trial in our court system? They would all get off based upon the Miranda law. Our system isnt designed to deal with this type of problem but giving rights to foreign terrorists isnt a step in the right direction. There are bad things that happen in this world and it isnt fair. But these arent citizens of this country nor were they found in our country.

You know why they dont fall under Geneva. Our solders do because they are soldiers of a country. Geneva wasnt designed to deal with this.


We need to stop being so damn PC and deal with bad guys like bad guys.

Just so I understand...you are actually justifying your position on the way we deal with human rights by using Russia and China as examples?

Just to understand. You feel that is lawful and just for a goverment to go on foreign soil (war zone or not), kidnap a citizen of that foreign country, torture them and hold them captive for years...on grounds of suspicion.

Does that sum it up?

Kidnap? that's kind of funny. Maybe you think we should be on trial then? How do you feel about killing them while in the war zone? Disarm the military and give them tasers? Maybe just throw wads of money at them and run away.

?? I made one post, commenting on how similar our methods are to the old KGB. You're off on your own tangent now. Thanks for taking me along for your wild ride, but no thanks.

Not all the detainees were captured in war zones.

If you were walking down the street in your neighborhood and a van pulled up with masked men and they put a veil over your head and took you to another country...

would you call that kidnapping?

We stack up pretty good compared to them, no? Would you rather use India and Pakistan? Or Thailand? Or Indochina? Or Libya? Or Venezuela? Or Cuba? Or Columbia? or ????

I'm sure there were tons of cases of isolated innocents being kidnapped by the secret army guys in white vans. And we are crazy?

I have to say that the new KGB must be more effective because they just up and kill people in broad daylight now. Yeah I'm sure that they were writing memos to the Politoboro asking permission to use interrogation methods in Siberia. What kind of dreamland do you guys live in?

How about we hold ourselves to a higher standard and be a real world leader? How about we stop condemning all the countries that you just named for the same behavior that you are condoning?

based on the stories that are coming forward from the few that have gotten out, my scenario is pretty accurate.

But then again, how would we know? Just like you said earlier to brian, we really wouldnt know. Thats the problem.

Another dream world inhabitant...

You really think if we were to denounce torture and rlease all the prisoners (to where i dont know) that those countries and their leaders would #1 Believe us? Or #2 follow suit?

as Obama is finding out now, dealing with these individuals is far harder in reality than in campaign promise world, hence his following along with many of Bush's same arguments in holding the prisoners.

In other countries they regularly imprison or kill political opponents. I'm sure that our treatment of terrorists will have a profound effect on that practice.

Apparently the one where I'm not really participating in this discussion, but you bring up my name anyway so you can diss what I haven't said.

Exactly. The fact that they had talked about their story alone puts us way down the chain of fear of Intellegence services. Think anyone talks after the Moussad or KGB releases them? Or I should say survives afterwards?

I know that bad things occur in the world. Condoning or approving them doesnt change the fact that they happen and in many cases need to happen. Think the three pirates killed would have surrendered willingly if they thought they would have been treated "fairly"? So killing them to save a life is less of a n issue than sleep deprivation of a terror suspect that may be withholding info on a imminent plot? Who gets to choose?

Did you not post and where was your name brought up?

Do you really think that those 10 techniques are comparable to what happened in Russia (and most likely still is?)

Didnt say to release all the prisoners. I said that they deserve trials and representation. The ones that can't be rightfully condemned should be released.

Obama has been in office about 3 months. Action on this front could still be forthcoming. Seems like the man has a lot on his plate right now.