It's based on the last three years. Can you really say the Suburban with Frost Giant, Political Force, and Invasor is any worse than the Stephen Foster with Curlin, Flashy Bull, and Seek Gold? That one should be a G1 and the other shouldn't? Really, they should both be G1s and the Foster should be moved to Derby weekend where there is a hole in the calendar.

how about vs. the Clark, with AP Arrow, Premium Tap, Magna Grad, and Saint Liam, which is a G2?

Yep, I am a idiot....friggin name change...My bad

You know where that post is going ;)

I wouldn't have a problem with the Clark returning to a G1 ahead of some of these other races. The fact is, we need races that give a reason for owners to bring their top 3yos back. Downgrading the races in the older male division is just providing even less incentive. In just two years we've seen the Pimlico Special lost as a G1, the Mass Cap lost as a G2, and both the Suburban and Clark dropped from G1 to G2 while to counterbalance only the Goodwood on cushion crap has gone to G1. How is that helping provide incentive to bring back a good horse?

Horse racing is probably the only sport which rates their events before the participants are known or the event is held.

You're kidding....right?

Every professional sport does the same thing.

My point is that we call this race a top race, and that race a mediocre race, before we even know who is running. Aside from the marketing usage, I don't understand what value it adds? And on the flip-side, would it be so bad to have a number assigned down the road where breeders could use it more accurately?

Yes, it would. Then you'd have the connections of Curlin announce he was going to one race and everyone ducking him for another. The other race gets assigned a G1 cause of a deep field and Curlin's race becomes a G3 because it turns into a walkover. By assigning the Grade ahead of time those people can choose to duck Curlin in the G1 but may have to run in a G2 or G3 to do so.

Breeder's are looking for accuracy? Who knew.

There are two groups....people who look at things accurately ( bettors ) and people who....well you know.

Some bettors... hopefully not the majority though.

Right. I mean, it's not like I was including Fischer.

The Clark was upgraded for exactly 1 year and downgraded the next season. Strange. This year's Clark (G2) is better than the Cigar Mile (G1) so one yearobviously doesn't make or break a race.

It is?

It has Commentator and a bunch of relative dreck. Now, I understand what you are sort of saying about the Cigar, but on overall quality, it is a MUCH better race.

I do find the upgrade and then immediate downgrade, especially in that Premium Tap won it, to have been pretty strange.

Different divisions makes it an unfair comparison. Each division's races have to be compared to other races within that division, not to races in a different division. Obviously, a race like the Oak Leaf Stakes is not a bigger race with better quality horses than the Oaklawn Hcp. But that's not the the way to look at it, I don't think. I think that the best races in a given division should get the highest ratings. The Madison is one of the three or four best races in the filly/mare sprinters division. The Jamaica is one of the three or four best races for 3yo grass runners. The Suburban is no longer one of the top races for older males.

Fair point, but by that logic the Virginia Derby should be a G1 over the Jamaica, IMO. Gio Ponti, Red Giant, Go Between, English Channel, Kitten's Joy, and Silver Tree are the last 6 winners. Find me a better turf race for 3YO's than that.

And I have pictures of two of the last four winners of the Jamaica hanging in my house.

You're scaring me.

The Madison was bumped up by Ventura. I admit that I tend to think that the Committee just sits and pants and waits for the chance to upgrade anything Keeneland runs. When the Shadwell Mile and the Maker's Mark mile were upgraded and the Oak Tree Mile not, that was it for me. The Oak Tree had sent out about 4 straight BC Mile winners and several others that ran well.

BTW, IMO, neither the Clark or the Cigar is all that great. Good races, possibly nice betting events (I haven't 'capped them yet obviously, using likely starters in NY) but if they cancelled the Remsen, I'd skip my trip to the Big A on Sat.

Well, I have two pictures of you hanging in my house too, does that scare you?













THUD :p

You'd get no argument from me at all. I think the VA Derby should be the higher rated of the two.

On the subject of the Arkansas Derby, I think it's ridiculous that it's not on par with the Blue Grass, Wood, Florida Derby, and SA Derby. I think they should all be grade two races since they are preps for the real big one but I'm not going to argue whether they should be one's or two's. Whatever they are, they should all be the same. To have the Arkansas Derby as the same grade as it's prep, the Rebel, is beyond stupid.

Monterey Jazz is now running in the Cigar.

Was that intended to impress me?

When he's right he's a pretty good horse. There's not much out there but with Commentator and Magna Graduate and Einstein in KY there's not much left.

No, I just saw it on DRF, and found it interesting and surprising. It certainly adds a lot to the race.

Without the pp's I don't remember if his tailing off coincided with Polytrack ala Arson Squad. Obviously he's pretty deadly on the lead and Commentator's absence leaves a spot in the front of the race.

You're badly confused. He didn't tail off.....he ran a monster race, albeit while setting a very slow pace, in the Texas Mile and then was injured preparing for the Met Mile.

I must be thinking of some other horse. Now that you reminded me of the Texas race, I remember Monterey Jazz. Now I remember that he was hurt. Now I have to figure out who I was thinking of that tailed off, in addition to Arson Squad...

It's a long list.

That ****in' Lone Star surface hurts a lot of horses.....Place sucks.

I disagree... they actually have a really good dirt surface. Monterey Jazz is just really fast, which almost by corollary means he's fragile. In fact I think he was injured in training at Belmont, if I recall correctly.

I'm excited for his return.

It would be amazing if we could handicap the race.
NYRA dont want to release the PP's until 36 hours before the race is run.

It's 2pm EST and Fridays PP's still aren't up.

Sorry Bro. 2 weeks after MJ raced in the Texas Mile....The Lone Star Derby on 5/10/08:

El Gato Malo...winner, undisclosed injury when he got back to CA, out 7 months.

Samba Rooster...2nd...Done, Career Over. Came up lame a week after the race.

Limestone Edge...4th...Crack in right front ankle upon return to CA, out 7 months.

Coincidence??

Maybe a good surface for Bret Calhoun's string of horses

Monterey Jazz suffered a hind foot fracture in a workout at Hollywood Park before he was scheduled to ship for the Met Mile.

that came from an article on drf.

My general impression over recent years is that there is a strong preference for upgrading turf stakes, especially ones with age and/or gender restrictions.

I don't agree with that.