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-   -   Stewards- Country Star (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24597)

SCUDSBROTHER 08-18-2008 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ
He understands making deposits at the bank I bet.

I wish somebody would tell him moles can be taken off.

SCUDSBROTHER 08-18-2008 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC
Are you absolutely 100% sure Frankel's horse wasn't going to lose? If so we were not watching the same race.

It's a judgement. In other words, they make the change opposite of the way you've stated it. They make a change if they are convinced(you say 100% etc.) another horse would of won if he wasn't fouled. They weren't convinced these horses were gunna beat this horse. They make a change to correct an obvious injustice in a placing. It's not obvious to them that they were gunna get by this horse.

blackthroatedwind 08-18-2008 10:29 PM

It was impossible to tell from the supposed head-on whether or not a foul actually occured.

The stewards made the right call. I don't understand why people here keep clamoring for more disqualifications.

Cannon Shell 08-18-2008 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
Well, I can't explain to a trainer how boring this is for fans, because trainers get 10% of the 1st place money. It's not boring to you guys. It makes for a pretty useless race for us. One guy said pass the race. I would say pass the race. Joey tried to beat the Frankel, and lost. Your attitude is typical of trainers. They don't care if racing is that competitive. Short uncompetitive fields are in your best interest. Large competitive fields are in our best interest. Frankel's been jamming this chalk down people's throats in these bully situations forever. He is no friend of those wanting good competitive racing(again I don't expect you to care if the racing is very competitive.) Trainers n' fans have highly differing self interests.

This is not your best work. First of all Trainers are trying to win, it isnt our job to make races competitive just as it isnt the head coaches job to make a game that is a blow out closer so it will be more interesting for the fans. Secondly these races are the BEST races to bet as an over-hyped horse with a consistently over bet trainer in a tough situation is a great bet against especially because you are getting greater value on the other runners. Frankel probably wins 30% of the time in these situations and is probably over bet 80% of the time. You do the math.

Indian Charlie 08-18-2008 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'd be hard pressed to remember a better four horse field than that one.

SCUDSBROTHER 08-18-2008 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
This is not your best work. First of all Trainers are trying to win, it isnt our job to make races competitive just as it isnt the head coaches job to make a game that is a blow out closer so it will be more interesting for the fans. Secondly these races are the BEST races to bet as an over-hyped horse with a consistently over bet trainer in a tough situation is a great bet against especially because you are getting greater value on the other runners. Frankel probably wins 30% of the time in these situations and is probably over bet 80% of the time. You do the math.

In this particular type of class-break situation(stakes winner in a optional claimer,) the chance of beating him is not as you say. I wish it was. It really is a useless race. Can't wait until he is out of the game(this type of race is why.) A trainer can't relate.

Linny 08-18-2008 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
Well, I can't explain to a trainer how boring this is for fans, because trainers get 10% of the 1st place money. It's not boring to you guys. It makes for a pretty useless race for us. One guy said pass the race. I would say pass the race. Joey tried to beat the Frankel, and lost. Your attitude is typical of trainers. They don't care if racing is that competitive. Short uncompetitive fields are in your best interest. Large competitive fields are in our best interest. Frankel's been jamming this chalk down people's throats in these bully situations forever. He is no friend of those wanting good competitive racing(again I don't expect you to care if the racing is very competitive.) Trainers n' fans have highly differing self interests.

Yeah, Frankel needs to start being a bad trainer and losing races so horseplayers can see competitive races. As Chuck says, it's not the trainers' roles to create a "fun betting race" for the bettors.
The filly damn near lost, it was a pretty contentious stretch run, the better horse won. She's a G1 winning filly in a NW2x for a trainer who's about 30% off the layoff. Trying to beat her makes sense if you are more afraid of being accused of being a chalk eating weasel than of tearing up tickets.
If you think she's a vulnerable fave, bet against but when she beats you it's moronic to scream about how bad she was.
It goes without saying that trainers and players have different interests. Trainers make money by running against "lesser" stock than their own.

SCUDSBROTHER 08-18-2008 11:24 PM

He looks for incredibly soft spots more than most. Could find a baby's soft spot in 1.5 seconds. They all do it, but this guy lives for it. It's crappy for the game. Bad race. Delay...Frankel Delay....A competitive race will follow after this one. We appreciate your understanding, and interesting betting races will resume shortly.

SCUDSBROTHER 08-18-2008 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I don't understand why people here keep clamoring for more disqualifications.

You're biased against disqualifications. This has been established repeatedly. Never the less, your distaste for take downs is once again noted.

ateamstupid 08-18-2008 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny
The filly damn near lost, it was a pretty contentious stretch run, the better horse won. She's a G1 winning filly in a NW2x for a trainer who's about 30% off the layoff. Trying to beat her makes sense if you are more afraid of being accused of being a chalk eating weasel than of tearing up tickets.

Once again, she wasn't the fastest horse in the race on grass, and she is what's supposed to be a dirt filly being thrown onto turf. She was a terrible bet at 4-5.

This blanket "She's a Grade 1 winning filly" defense is totally lazy and worthless. It puts horses like this on the same plateau as true Grade 1 caliber horses. This filly beat freaking Grace and Power on Cushion Track.. If you think that automatically makes her into a different class of horse, then you're probably the same idiot who bet her the two times before yesterday.

Your "arguments" are exactly why the horse was bet down to those indefensibly low odds. People like you ignore form and just assume every graded stakes horse from a good layoff trainer is automatically a layover. It's a foolish way to bet, but I get the impression that you don't bet much, so I don't know why I'm surprised that this is your logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny
If you think she's a vulnerable fave, bet against but when she beats you it's moronic to scream about how bad she was.

Yeah, because she was so damn impressive today. I forgot that if a horrible 4-5 favorite wins by a half-length after zig-zagging throughout the stretch, the horse retroactively becomes a good horse. Well done.

hrfan 08-19-2008 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid
Once again, she wasn't the fastest horse in the race on grass, and she is what's supposed to be a dirt filly being thrown onto turf. She was a terrible bet at 4-5.

This blanket "She's a Grade 1 winning filly" defense is totally lazy and worthless. It puts horses like this on the same plateau as true Grade 1 caliber horses. This filly beat freaking Grace and Power on Cushion Track.. If you think that automatically makes her into a different class of horse, then you're probably the same idiot who bet her the two times before yesterday.

Your "arguments" are exactly why the horse was bet down to those indefensibly low odds. People like you ignore form and just assume every graded stakes horse from a good layoff trainer is automatically a layover. It's a foolish way to bet, but I get the impression that you don't bet much, so I don't know why I'm surprised that this is your logic.



Yeah, because she was so damn impressive today. I forgot that if a horrible 4-5 favorite wins by a half-length after zig-zagging throughout the stretch, the horse retroactively becomes a good horse. Well done.

anyone know what hush puppy means ?

SCUDSBROTHER 08-19-2008 12:24 AM

Once it sprayin', ain't no containin'......Just a keep on rainin'... rainin'...rainin'.

ateamstupid 08-19-2008 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrfan
anyone know what hush puppy means ?



Seriously, good luck buying into hype horses like Country Star. I'll continue to bet against them.

hrfan 08-19-2008 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid


Seriously, good luck buying into hype horses like Country Star. I'll continue to bet against them.

i never said i bought into her, i was against her in the oaks and ashland, she was heavy at keenland and i did not touch her that day, i was 3 deep in pick 3's that day and used bsharp, little belle, and proud spell, country star was not even a option for me. i dont think shes anything special, but i do think she's above average/decent and is possibly best on turf.

hrfan 08-19-2008 01:03 AM

is hush puppy supposed to be a funny way of telling someone to shut up ?

Scurlogue Champ 08-19-2008 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
He looks for incredibly soft spots more than most. Could find a baby's soft spot in 1.5 seconds. They all do it, but this guy lives for it. It's crappy for the game. Bad race. Delay...Frankel Delay....A competitive race will follow after this one. We appreciate your understanding, and interesting betting races will resume shortly.

That is kind of his job. Put anything in the right company and it will win.

He sure didn't find an easy spot for Mast Track last out at 12-1 did he? Did you happen to get any of that one?

hrfan 08-19-2008 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ
That is kind of his job. Put anything in the right company and it will win.

He sure didn't find an easy spot for Mast Track last out at 12-1 did he? Did you happen to get any of that one?

i agree, some could say he is a master at picking his spots. a few years back he was easily the best trainer in the game, and is still today right up there.

hoovesupsideyourhead 08-19-2008 09:04 AM

i agree with country star being left up.. i do not agree that the 7 horse in the feature it should have been dqed imo

CSC 08-19-2008 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
It was impossible to tell from the supposed head-on whether or not a foul actually occured.

The stewards made the right call. I don't understand why people here keep clamoring for more disqualifications.

I have a different opinon, my problem with the non DQ yesterday stems from the lack of consistency with calls we have seen this summer, I've seen far less done at Delmar that resulted in a DQ for instance, as a horseplayer we are left scratching our heads? Still I thought the head on replay showed Country Star clearly veering into the path of Marie Rossa when she started to gain on her, to me this was blocking the path of another horse that wasn't beaten by much in the end anyway. For good measure she veered out again near the finish line, take these 2 incidents out and margin at the wire would have been alot closer than the 1/2 length difference. I understand keeping a horse up if they are clearly the best in the field but in this case. I think Marie Rossa deserved a better fate as she was running her race and all of the trouble was the result of Frankel's horse.

philcski 08-19-2008 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC
I have a different opinon, my problem with the non DQ yesterday stems from the lack of consistency with calls we have seen this summer, I've seen far less done at Delmar that resulted in a DQ for instance, as a horseplayer we are left scratching our heads? Still I thought the head on replay showed Country Star clearly veering into the path of Marie Rossa when she started to gain on her, to me this was blocking the path of another horse that wasn't beaten by much in the end anyway. For good measure she veered out again near the finish line, take these 2 incidents out and margin at the wire would have been alot closer than the 1/2 length difference. I understand keeping a horse up if they are clearly the best in the field but in this case. I think Marie Rossa deserved a better fate as she was running her race and all of the trouble was the result of Frankel's horse.

Precisely my opinion... the objective is not to increase DQ's but rather show consistency in their decisions.

Gander 08-19-2008 10:23 AM

I thought Country Star had a perfect trip and was very lucky to win the race. She beat a pretty awful group by a very small amount and if she did get DQ'ed, it would have been pretty fair. To me it was one that could have gone either way. Like Scuds said, just a judgement call from the stewards as to whether or not it changes the outcome of the race. She was coming off a layoff from a poor outing so it may be fair to say her best race is next out. Frankel is good off layoffs, but he also is very good 2nd off too.

I dont think the Gazelle is a crazy spot for this horse as I see Music Note regressing huge next time out, off that very close loss to Proud Spell. I'd be all over Country Star in the Gazelle given the right price.

hockey2315 08-19-2008 10:42 AM

Country Star looked atrocious in the stretch. . .

blackthroatedwind 08-19-2008 10:49 AM

Country Star may or may not be that terrific a horse, but she's pretty good on the turf, and ran well yesterday. She is not a grinder, and being forced to sit three wide and close to a moderate pace, the way she did yesterday, is not only well against her preferred running style, it is an extremely difficult way to race and be successful. Those that think she did not run well yesterday are massively mistaken.

And to those that also think she was way overbet yesterday, I offer that in her only prior turf start, she not only finished second to Backseat Rhythm, who is one of the best ( if not the best ) 3YO turf fillies in the country, she was making her debut while Backseat Rhythm had the benefit of two prior starts. Ignoring these facts, while stating how dramatically overbet she was, makes no sense whatsoever. OK, maybe 4:5 was a tad low, but hardly THAT low. And, considering how she won, I'm not so sure there were a lot of scenerios where she wouldn't have gotten to the wire first. Probably not five out of ten.

SCUDSBROTHER 08-19-2008 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ
That is kind of his job. Put anything in the right company and it will win.

He sure didn't find an easy spot for Mast Track last out at 12-1 did he? Did you happen to get any of that one?

There is something of actual value to the thread now,because you've reminded everyone of the horse who got free on a highly speed favoring day at Hwd Park in late June. You had no shot trying to make up ground on this day. Last Saturday in June of this year. Find good raters that failed miserably on this day, and you'll get some value. The 2 days before this were the exact opposite of what I just said ( again some value available, but i'd say that saturday card was the real value producer.) That was the best Friday Night for me ever at HWD PARK. They didn't adjust at all(just kept playing speed,) and lil Garcia capped off a real nice (had it 10x) p3 ending in the feature....Uh, no I didn't have Mast Track the next day. I was in Vegas, and had switched tracks when I realized the put a speed bias in overnight(just like that? yep..they changed it late Friday Night.) It is true though that T BAZE is the 1st to know about a change in track bias, and the best at taking advantage of it.

SCUDSBROTHER 08-19-2008 11:32 AM

BTW, you can't compare the stewards at different tracks to each other. Somebody mentioned Del Mar. Well, the stewards on this circuit have a different threshold in play when one Victor Espinoza is involved. They aren't gunna help out Nakatani much at all, either. Out here, you are damn near for sure not gunna get taken down if you use Gomez. It's a very political situation with these stewards out here. For instance, I really think Bodacat had shown he was the best horse, but got taken down(because Espinoza was riding.) Gomez would never have come down if he had done the same on Bodacat.

the_fat_man 08-19-2008 12:21 PM

CS has footwork issues. She had them in her 1st and 2nd start and, apparently, they were worked out by her 3rd start. I'm took lazy to check out her 4th and 5th race but she was awful yesterday. She spent a good portion of the backstretch LEFTY and she wasn't able to stay on one lead consistently during the stretch run (while under pressure).

Maybe she's still green (it's related to the whip and the jockey change) or maybe it's just the way she runs (not terribly efficient, then) or maybe she has (soundness) issues.

dalakhani 08-19-2008 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Country Star may or may not be that terrific a horse, but she's pretty good on the turf, and ran well yesterday. She is not a grinder, and being forced to sit three wide and close to a moderate pace, the way she did yesterday, is not only well against her preferred running style, it is an extremely difficult way to race and be successful. Those that think she did not run well yesterday are massively mistaken.

And to those that also think she was way overbet yesterday, I offer that in her only prior turf start, she not only finished second to Backseat Rhythm, who is one of the best ( if not the best ) 3YO turf fillies in the country, she was making her debut while Backseat Rhythm had the benefit of two prior starts. Ignoring these facts, while stating how dramatically overbet she was, makes no sense whatsoever. OK, maybe 4:5 was a tad low, but hardly THAT low. And, considering how she won, I'm not so sure there were a lot of scenerios where she wouldn't have gotten to the wire first. Probably not five out of ten.

I certainly think that Backseat Rhythm is a nice 3yo turf filly, but she is not even in the same realm as Pure Clan.

blackthroatedwind 08-19-2008 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani
I certainly think that Backseat Rhythm is a nice 3yo turf filly, but she is not even in the same realm as Pure Clan.


I think she may well be better.

zippyneedsawin 08-19-2008 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead
i agree with country star being left up.. i do not agree that the 7 horse in the feature it should have been dqed imo

It was tough to tell on the turn if By The Light came out on the outside horse on her own, or if Salt Water Reign forced her out. I think it was the right call.

reese 08-19-2008 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
It was impossible to tell from the supposed head-on whether or not a foul actually occured.

The stewards made the right call. I don't understand why people here keep clamoring for more disqualifications.

Standard issue when one loses...:zz:

reese 08-19-2008 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny
Yeah, Frankel needs to start being a bad trainer and losing races so horseplayers can see competitive races. As Chuck says, it's not the trainers' roles to create a "fun betting race" for the bettors.
The filly damn near lost, it was a pretty contentious stretch run, the better horse won. She's a G1 winning filly in a NW2x for a trainer who's about 30% off the layoff. Trying to beat her makes sense if you are more afraid of being accused of being a chalk eating weasel than of tearing up tickets.
If you think she's a vulnerable fave, bet against but when she beats you it's moronic to scream about how bad she was.
It goes without saying that trainers and players have different interests. Trainers make money by running against "lesser" stock than their own.

Good post.

:tro: :tro:

ateamstupid 08-19-2008 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reese
Good post.

:tro: :tro:

:rolleyes:

reese 08-19-2008 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: You should talk....whining ...wha...wha...wha.. about losing a P3 because you are dumb enough to bet against a Frankel horse as the favorite. Anyone that bets against a Frankel like Country Star BECAUSE they want to bet against fav...in spite of the race figs ...get what they deserve a losing ticket for a loser.

I saw the race ancd the replays several times. There was no interference in that pack of horses. If anything the horse on the rail jammed the bunch

CSC 08-19-2008 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Make that 2 of us.

KY_Sasquash 08-20-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Country Star may or may not be that terrific a horse, but she's pretty good on the turf, and ran well yesterday. She is not a grinder, and being forced to sit three wide and close to a moderate pace, the way she did yesterday, is not only well against her preferred running style, it is an extremely difficult way to race and be successful. Those that think she did not run well yesterday are massively mistaken.

And to those that also think she was way overbet yesterday, I offer that in her only prior turf start, she not only finished second to Backseat Rhythm, who is one of the best ( if not the best ) 3YO turf fillies in the country, she was making her debut while Backseat Rhythm had the benefit of two prior starts. Ignoring these facts, while stating how dramatically overbet she was, makes no sense whatsoever. OK, maybe 4:5 was a tad low, but hardly THAT low. And, considering how she won, I'm not so sure there were a lot of scenerios where she wouldn't have gotten to the wire first. Probably not five out of ten.


Backseat Rhythm is a very nice filly and I agree she's one of the top 3yo turf fillies. I hope she and My Princess Jess get to face each other in the Garden City or QE II

Turnofoot 08-27-2008 01:39 PM

Just curious what did BR do in the American Oaks? Which PC won. She was boxed in, Split horses , and won going away. If I remember correctly BR ran sixth.

Rudeboyelvis 08-27-2008 04:28 PM

That goes directly to the "First Post Hall of Fame"

ArlJim78 08-27-2008 04:46 PM

i eagerly await post #2, hopefully it will be in the selections section.

Turnofoot 08-27-2008 04:52 PM

You guys are ruthless. I was being sarcastic to Blackthroatedwinds reply that Backseat Rythm was a better horse than Pure Clan. I guess I posted it wrong. Im sorry. LOL


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