Originally Posted by Danzig

just think of the press overseas should curlin go to the arc--with his asst trainer due to the head trainer getting a drug pos.

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

what the hell does a horse who theraputically needs lidocaine have any business running within that month?

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

As can be construed from your entire post, lidocaine is used to facilitate minor surgical procedures and lameness diagnosis. Certainly horses are able to perform within a couple of weeks of such procedures (ie lacerations, throat surgery, etc) if given the go-ahead. The recommended withdrawal is 5 to 10 days depending on the amount used.

It would be interesting in these cases of local anesthetic positives to see whether or not the horses in question underwent any sort of treatment necessitating local anesthetic use. I'd imagine such information could be found on the daily reports private veterinarians are required to submit in most jurisdictions. Otherwise, its hard to swallow these so called "contamination" excuses.

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

Shameful

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have no idea about the particulars of this case but lidocaine is found in over the counter creams and gels. Steve Penrod, who is the last trainer that would ever do anything illegal, got a lidocaine positive a few years ago because the groom had used an aloe vera cream that had lidocaine in it on a filly's heels.

Originally Posted by sumitas

As an aside, fairly recently, didn't a girl pass away due to overdose of lidocaine because she used skin creams often ? In other words (read the label), this lidocaine positive was the result of applying lidocaine directly to the horse.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What jurisdictions require this?

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I believe that here in California, vets have to document every treatment done to a horse. If they are going to do something illegal, they are obviously not going to abide by this rule.

But in terms of injecting ankles with substances that are legal including cortisone, this is all supposed to be documented. So when a horse breaks down, they could actually check to see how many times the horse has been injected.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How do you know?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do they have to turn the records over to the racing commission?

Originally Posted by sumitas

You said the lidocaine was in the aloe gel.

Here's just one link to a lidocaine overdose from topical cream.
http://www.ncsu.edu/news/dailyclips/1205/122205.htm#2

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know if it's the racing commision or the racing office. I wasn't even aware of this until just recently. With everything that has been going on lately, I was telling one of my trainers that I thought that the track should have a record of anything that a vet does to a horse on the backstretch. He told me that they do have these records. I was totally surprised.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know that the racing commission can request the Vet records but i didnt know any state was actually collecting them on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Unless I misunderstood my trainer, the records are turned over to either the racing office or the commision. I'm not sure which. I don't know if they are turned over every day, once a week, or once a month. I will find out.

It is possible that I misunderstood and they are only turned over if a horse breaks down.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What jurisdictions require this?

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

California, Kentucky, Delaware, and Florida, for instance. New York and New Jersey don't require daily reports, but do require vets to submit reports of any joint injections performed. I assume all jurisdictions require veterinarians to maintain medical records in general and some if not most retain the right to have those records submitted in certain instances, namely, when investigating positive post-race tests.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Checks records and sees that it was given by vet further than 72 hours out. since the records are already turned in and not doctored, they would have some ammo to dispute the test. Maybe they would still be liable but would get a reduced penalty. wouldnt that be possible?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have never heard that they collected daily reports in KY or FL. i dont race much in the other states.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I guess i thought that if the commission had the vet records than why hadnt i ever heard of a trainer using them to "prove" that a positive has mitigating circumstances. example. Drug X has a 72 hour withdrawl. Trainer gets a positive for it. Checks records and sees that it was given by vet further than 72 hours out. since the records are already turned in and not doctored, they would have some ammo to dispute the test. Maybe they would still be liable but would get a reduced penalty. wouldnt that be possible?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

... got a lidocaine positive a few years ago because the groom had used an aloe vera cream that had lidocaine in it on a filly's heels.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I believe that does happen sometimes. If a trainer with a good reputation(good in terms of honesty) has a positive and he has a good explanation as to how it happened, the stewards and commission may not come down hard on him. I think the stewards and commissions are usually willing to consider extenuating circumstances when making their decisions on what type of penalty to administer.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I had an overage on a legal therapuetic med last summer. We provided our records that showed the med was stopped 48 hourse before the suggested cutoff time. Funny thing was they were impressed with our recordkeeping and never mentioned the vets records.

Originally Posted by Danzig

no.

my point is that i find it absolutely ridiculous that dutrow is being treated as a first time offender, and is being given a first offender suspension in ky. if we had a nat'l body, he'd be treated as the repeat offender he is.

jeremy rose won't be able to ride anywhere while serving the six month suspension given him in delaware. when asmussen was serving his six month suspension last winter and spring, he wasn't allowed to train anywhere in the country-so why aren't drug violations 'carried over' from one jurisdiction to the next, such as in dutrows case?

if he's had past class 2 violations, this should count as #8 for instance, not as a first offense since it's his first in kentucky. it's far from his first violation.

Originally Posted by freddymo

Did they throw the book at you? You know your record book..I suggest a little enevelope with benny's in it works everytime..

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Clenbuterol is a Class III drug rather than a Class II. So a clenbuterol positive is not considered nearly as serious as a lidocaine or mepivicaine positive.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I heard that Vladimir just got another positive out here in California. I'm not sure what it was for. We will find out soon enough. I'm sure you are all shocked. He hasn't had too many. LOL.

Originally Posted by Danzig

no doubt explains why some refer to his as vladimir syringe...

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The filly Asmussen got the positive test with finished last beaten 18+ lengths over the weekend in a small stake at Sun Rey Park (whereever that is!)

I assume any last ditch efforts to fix her problems will be no more - and she will be retired as a broodmare.

She's by Forestry out of a multiple Graded Stakes winning mare - she worked an 1/8th in 10 flat at a 2yo sale - and clearly had talent and pedigree to go along with real soundness issues.

It looks like they tried to piece her together and get her some soft blacktype to round out her broodmare resume ... instead all they got was a bad drug test out of the deal.