Mike Maloney is not just one of the biggest bettors in the country, he is also one of the sharpest horseplayers alive, and an extremely bright and well-spoken advocate of bettor's rights. To make light of this is a mistake. None of us knows as much as he knows about this situation and I for one listen to anything he has to say and take it all seriously.

The bottom line is that the necessary dollars have not been spent to update our tote system and even one situation like this is too many for me. Laugh and joke all you want but if you put your money through the windows you should be taking this very seriously......and expecting that all racing organizations are acting in kind.

i think layering on the idea that a system is vulnerable to insider manipulation to a sport that already requires complicated puzzle solving skills is a problem.

whether that's real or just an inaccurate perception doesn't matter. no one wants to think they may get cheated.

you're too close to the issue cannon. it doesn't matter if it's real. the perception that the industry shrugs it shoulder's and says "no big deal" will effect handle a lot more in the long term than eliminating the bad perception late odd shifts and the occasional accident like this cause.

If this was the stock market, they'd be in fear of class action lawsuits when this kind of thing happend. Which would deter it. Please I'm hardly a fan of lawyers and lawsuits but they do deter stuff like this from happening. Unfortunately in parimutual racing, the victims are too splintered and most couldn't provide proof (losing tix) that they were injured.

I did not know that my opinions needed to be qualified any differently because my "livelihood depends on" the issue. I would venture that this has been occuring for as long as machines were used to take wagers. Probably less now than ever.

If what you say is true, can you say with any degree of certainty or with verifiable evidence that the Breeders Cup scandal which is much worse than this has negatively effected handle in any manner? I agree that the security of the pools is a huge issue but this example seems to be an isolated case. If not why hasn't it been brought up pubically before? Or has it?

Game set match goes to the blogger from Ky.....

BC scandal probably actually drove handle up!!!!

Any publicity is good publicity!!

This in the words of Mr "Shakes"......"Is much ado about nothing"

Odds on winners go down way too much for it to be a coincidence.You really don't have an excuse for not getting a bet at home made.I would be fine with shutting pools down for everyone except those at the actual track the race is taking place.Let them have that perk(for going to the actual track.)

I agree. For this to happen once is one time too many.

And if he was, in fact, punching tickets during the race, you can bet your last dollar others were doing the same.

As an aside, Maloney would be better at running Homeland Security than whoever they have now.

i can say that most people are satisfied the problem that lead to the pick 6 scandal was addressed and confident it can't be repeated.

they changed course after that. which makes all the difference.

what would have happened to handle in the pick 6 if everyone knew something strange had happened and the reaction had been "don't worry. that was an isolated incident and we don't need to do anything about it."

Big difference between the the BC scandal and this. Wagering security is important, that I understand. But I am at a racetrack every day and I talk to people in different jurisdictions daily and I cant remember the last time I heard about betting after the race went off. What would concern me more is a hacker getting into the system without anyone knowing. If you want to say that this instance was an example of a faulty system then I can agree with you. But if this had happened to this guy before why didn't he give other examples? Or did he and they weren't reported?

-from the article Maloney was hanging out by the teller , the race started and the machine didn't beep to indicate wagering was closed.

Sounds like he was at least aware of what to look for.

Fair Grounds states that their stop-wagering mechanism "malfunctioned". For that race only. - So if the problem was centralized in FG and not in KEE = than Maloney may not have been the only past-post money. And any persuasive player matched with a crooked/gullible teller could have bet late or cancelled late for this race. :cool:

Also it wouldn't be incredibly far fetched, to raise some possibilities that the FG stop-wagering mechanism was at previous times a bit tardy...

quotes from the bc scandal:

"Brooks Pierce, president of Autotote, which processes 65 percent of all horse racing wagers in North America, confirmed that the Maryland man won more than $3 million on his $1,152 bet. He also said that his company's records show the man made two bets at 2:13 p.m. and 2:14 p.m. on Saturday, well before pool was closed at 2:37 p.m.

Pierce said the bettor made a pick-six wager on a $2 ticket that did not win using a similar strategy -- he bet the entire field in the first two legs and then picked one horse in the remaining four. He said he had not yet been asked for the data by state investigators, but he intended to provide it.

''We've done the autopsy and do not have any question about the veracity of the bets,'' Pierce said. ''I can understand how a skeptic can look at a pool of this size and only one winner -- especially with those four singles -- and have concerns.

''But I also would like to think we have a pretty good story about a guy who didn't bet much and made a lot of money. I believe that is good for racing as well.'' "

and

"Donald Groth, president of Catskill OTB, also believes that the bettor had a career day betting. He said phone bets are recorded and monitored.

''Everything we have points to the legitimacy of this bet,'' Groth said. ''If some technological event happened as it left here, I don't know what it would be. I hope that the investigation is concluded swiftly, so our customer can go out and buy a Mercedes or two. Isn't that what you would do?'' "


fortunatly those attitudes weren't allowed to prevail.

Dead on here. The tote systems that racing are using are behind the times. For example, we're told by the tote companies that the reason that there aren't future pools with more than 24 wagering interests is that their systems can't handle it. In this day and age, they've got to be kidding. If they're not, then their systems are not as sophisticated as we're led to believe.

Perception is very important here. I realize that many place their wagers at the last few minutes to post, but I also know that people can adapt to changes in circumstances. If wagering were closed one minute to post, people would adjust over time. As I frequently say to friends of mine, gamblers rarely get shut out on a bet they really want to make.

I completely agree. Bettors will most certainly learn to adjust.

But it must be uniform for all outlets that accept wagers, live or on line.


When I first moved from NY to California, NY still had the rule that the wagering closed with 2 horses left to load. Well that I guess applied to only NY wagerers. I was often able to cancel wagers at the Del Mar facility, after a start delay due to a horse breaking through the gate. I doubt that was possible at the live track in NY. Nobody should have that type advantage unless all can have it.

I also remember the days at NY tracks that the Daily Double closed 2 minutes to post for race one. Much bigger crowds back then and no problems or mass complaints.

Interesting argument here as I've read all of the post. If this indeed happened, it's a shame. I'm hoping this doesn't happen again at any track.
It takes away from the integrity of the game. Speaking of integrity, how can anyone respect this Maloney fellow if he knowingly CHEATED. Also would he bloviate on this if he in fact had won his tardy wager. Big Bettor or not, I question his character.. As far as when to shut down the windows. In no way do I want the race to close 2 seconds or two minutes before the gate opens. I'm sure most of the people who support shutting the windows early haven't had to stand in line with the average race fan in quite some time. There has to be technology to prevent betting after the horses have left the gate.

Hi Tech
 

"He said that the stop wagering mechanism the stewards use malfunctioned, and that the mutual manager stopped wagering 15 seconds after the race began."

Nice to know that the highest forms of modern technology are being utilized. :rolleyes:

Which begs the obvious question, just how the hell does he do that?

A 15 second half mile would be awful quick...

He pulls the plug?

based on what I've read, that may not be too far from the truth

Little Brown Jug is known well for this around here. I was not the only one who watched a man place his wagers on a race AFTER the gates swung closed and the Pacers or Trotters were off. A good 15 seconds after the gates swung close.

In the old days when there was racing at the Goshen Harness track about 50 miles north of NYC, the windows closed for betting when the mutuel manager blew a whistle. Often the whistle didnt blow until the horses were already in the backstretch (it was a 1/2 mile track) some 20 seconds into the race.
Those were the days that taking 2/5 on a favorite with the lead was a steall.

Why are you so obsessed with what I say? Do you want me to call them and give them a quote? I will. At least I will state my true opinion on subjects unlike most in this industry. My opinion is that this was a malfunction. Simple. Get over it. If someone comes up with some information that this was done for an advantage or is happening more than once in a blue moon then I will say that there is a serious problem. There are many people here who feel that it is not an isolated incident. Fine that is thier opinion. If someone shows me something that backs that opinion up I will admit I underestimated the problem.

I would say that there are many more fixed races in this country than there are races with past posts. Think about that for a minute. Now there is a real problem.

At least we know you're uninvolved.;)

Been holding em for 2 years...I'll let you know...but dont get shut out!

Chuck I worked as a Teller for several months back a couple years ago. I speak regulary with many Tellers at my home track and have for years. If anyone should know about whether this is a problem or not it is a Teller at Beulah Park cause we have a large group of "gamblers" who play odds and numbers with 1 minute to post or less. They are shut out all the time.

Look, I sit at the same table when I am at the track which is right next to 2 Tellers who take a lot of action from the aforementioned players and in clear view of a dozen or more tv's. I don't see it as a crisis but rather an isolated incident that needs looked into.

That is the truest comment in this thread. They absolutely would adjust.

I wonder if Maloney was expecting this to happen and thus was ready to make his wagers after the race had started. I don't know how others do but whenever I'm in line to place my bet, I'm watching the monitor to see how much time I have. Almost without fail, I have a guy in front of me that takes 10 minutes to make a $2 win bet on a horse and I'm yelling out "come on!" When that last horse goes in, if I haven't gotten to the window, I turn away, figuring that I didn't make it. I wonder if Maloney was watching the race, saw that it had started and wagering hadn't closed and THEN went to try to take advantage or if he knew this was something that regularly happens and was already prepared to take advantage of it. My gut feeling tells me that if he or anyone else is still at the windows attempting to place bets up to 15 seconds after the start of a race, this is something that happens at other times and he was in position to try and take advantage.

I remember an incident at Arlington in the mid 80s. The gate opens and a 30-1 goes to the lead. A couple tellers realize the machines are still live. Tellers start betting. When the 30-1 shot who went to the lead crossed the wire in front, a near riot ensued when he was now 5-1 on the board. THey did catch the tellers but some real bad PR being the lead story on the 10 pm news. I've always been curious if they could skim some money off the top with late windows; as long as they weren't too greedy, they probably wouldn't get caught. What percentage of the time do payoffs go up from when the horses are loading into the gate? That percentage must be very low since so many winners get hit hard late.

As far as changing odds are concerned, it's only visible to the public if the money is bet in the Win pool... if it were placed in the exotic pools, all you would see would be surprisingly low payouts, which we do see all the time (although we can't be sure as to why).

I have really only been shut out of one bet that I absolutely wanted to make.. that was over a year ago, and it occurred when lightning struck the simulcast parlor, and the electricity went out with 7 minutes to post... came back on as they were loading.

Not an isolated incident
 

Dave Johnson (who was the moderator of the symposium) just said on his Sirius radio show that Mike Maloney claims that his specific story about betting after a race starts was NOT an isolated incident!

I know I wouldn't, King. Not unfrequently I like to see odds and wager up until the first few horses are entering the gate. And if there is a horse that won't load, gate problem, etc, I like to get a cancellation and nearly always try and get a cover wager in.

I really don't see this as huge problem in the sport. I understand why odds change as the horses are going down the backstretch. The last thing I think of is nefarious doings.

I deeply doubt it. He said he simply repeated wagers he had already constructed and made. If he knew it could come, I would think a reasonable person would have planned for this contingency and covered or had some reconstructed bets ready to place.

If I'm at the window as horses are about to go into the gate, trying to get bets down, I'm no longer watching the monitor as I did in line, I am watching the machine to ensure the teller is actually punching the correct numbers as I spell them out. And I'll keep reeling off the bets I want to make, until she tells me I can't. I can't do that, and watch the monitor, at the same time.

Fifteen seconds just isn't long enough for me to stand in front of the teller at the window, turn to watch the break on the monitor, consider what is unfolding, then tell her and have her place those reconstructed bets for me.

Maybe I'm just slow :rolleyes:

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, I tend to start at the beginning. I must say this is a bullshit post. Why in the hell would bettors have any reason to believe it is a one time incident? It should never, ever happen. We've been told a million times it can't happen. I laughed every time I heard that.

If this is happening all the time why is this issue almost never discussed? If it is such a problem then why dont I ever hear about it happening? I hear all the time about every other bitch that people have in this industry a hundred times over but for such a major problem it seems like it is rarely mentioned.

Because it doesn't. One blowhard makes a statement saying he bet halfway through a race and everyones panties get into a twist. But it sounds to me like people now want to get shut out with 2 MTP.

you've never heard anyone complain about late odds changes?

the experience of a 4-1 shot taking an easy lead and crossing the finish line 5-2?

i can't remember when this wasn't something people talked about. and the answer is always the same. the wagering platform is secure and no one is getting bets in after the gate opens.