Danzig,this is the state of condition that the mental health system in this country is in.They have plenty of excuses........ don't they? Fact is they see these sick folks walk out the door,and into the streets.Do they follow up? No."The laws are bad" O.K.well who do you think should be trying to change them? Maybe the same people that see these sick ones walk out the door? We get to see these sick folks when they do something like this.Mental Health workers etc. see these people everyday. So,this is the 1st part of the problem.Psychiatrists don't get paid for improving patients.I don't know how they are judged,but it isn't that way.My guess is if they get patients mentally stable(at all)then they call it success.These are simply the most overpaid people on Earth.The goal is never to get people well.The goal is to get people out of the office in 15 minutes.That's the "professionals" we are talking about here.Seriously,these are the least talented doctors of the bunch(CHECKS FOR FREE.)Traditionally,this country has always been focused on the ideal of being rich.Since that is the focus,it means you will also have many working poor,and these people make it much tougher to spot (and help) mentally ill people.They would be much more obvious to spot in countries that value a basic standard of living(and a basic level of health care.)Honestly,this country does a pss poor job at treating the mentally ill,and sometimes it REALLY SHOWS.This is one of those times.In this country,the mentally ill will be told to exercise more,and eat better.I'm serious.This is the extent of knowledge the average person has about mental illness.Then you have people that think you can treat major mental illness by talking it over.Well,next time you get a tumor try talking it over with somebody.

Scuds, Stick to attacking me with your idiotic comments, you will get support there but when you open your mouth about mental health, you really show your ignorance. Have you ever worked with the mentally ill? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Of course not! Psychiatrists are brilliant and dedicated people who work long hours under the most difficult of conditions...they work with at risk people and one mistake can result in death, the burden they carry is something a self-centered fool like you can never appreciate. Most mental health professionals are in fact underpaid and under-appreciated, my staff were required to have a college degree yet were paid $10 an hour...laborers get that much and more! You have no understanding of the legal situation nor the lack of funding that makes services non-existent for so many. I've seen thousands..yes, thousands of people who have been given back their lives by mental health professionals. When you make your stupid little remarks about me, I simply laugh them off but for someone without a clue to degrade the hard work of folks who actually dedicate their lives to helping others is a crime. Tell me Scuds, in your entire pathetic life, what have you done to help other people?

somer, just because you do your job, and are good at it, does not mean ALL psychiatrists are! don't take it personally, or get defensive, when questions are asked! like the joke says, what do you call the guy who graduated last in his class at medical school? doctor!

i was asking questions, as are a lot of people. i didn't claim to know everything, nor did i bash psychology as tom cruise did. so thanks for answering my thoughts, and questions--you helped a whole lot. :rolleyes:

there were so many red flags thrown by this guy over the years--i just don't understand what it takes. he was on anti-depressants, so obviously under someone's care. and if roommates, laymen--can see this guy had a problem, why didn't the professionals?? THAT is what i'm asking.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/...AAb4_pGlFH2ocA


seems when the judge found cho mentally defective, he only sent him for outpatient treatment, he was not committed to an institution-so there was no state law demanding the ruling be reported, which would have barred sale of the guns. i'd imagine the virginia ledge will be taking this under advisement, and that a change will be made.

Mrs Z, I never get personally upset, you should know that by now. I wasn't offended by your post, only pointing out that you don't know the field nor the legal aspects well enough to be critical of MH staff. I'm the first to agree that major changes in how we treat MH patients is a must! As your next post indicates, apparently the judge never committed the boy...again, if he admitted himself then we can't hold him UNLESS he's actively suicidal or homicidal...since a year passed since he was treated, obviously that was not the case. Now Scuds...I tire of his attacks, when it me...no problem, I ignore him BUT MH professionals don't deserve his ignorant invective!

Somer,
Please do me a favor.
Type something into the "Scandal d'Jour" thread.
It doesn't seem to come up to the top (I wonder why).
Maybe if there's a response besides me, it will come up.
Thanks.
DTS

that's why i wrote that post, i don't understand how things happened, unfolded as they did....of course things are becoming a bit clearer..

thing is, i'm not so sure that anyone can answer why this all happened. he seems to have been evil, pure and simple. why? i don't know. why do a lot of crazed killers do what they do, why did hitler do what he did? we'll never know.
it's human nature to want to solve every puzzle-i think we feel more powerful if we can answer questions. but we can't always do so. at least not in a very satisfying way.

i just wish they hadn't aired so much of his video, etc. copycats are my concern, i know there have already been some arrests of others country-wide who have threatened to do similar--or worse!

Yeah, this is a largely rural area of Pa where I live, in this morning's paper, a local high school had a bomb threat and a local college likewise just yesterday. There will be copycat incidents, and the beginning and end of the school year is historically when most incidents occur. There is no easy answer...certainly we need more MH services, more early intervention with kids experiencing difficulties with socialization, fewer hours spent playing violent video games at the expense of making friends and feeling a part of the world....we need a fairer society where hopelessness and helplessness are replaced by hope for a better life. All sounds simple but how do we do it? The media and so many folks simply look for blame after a tragic event occurs...the time to stop these horrible events is BEFORE they happen...instead of focusing on revenge and "justice" for criminals, we should look to prevent crime...that can never be accomplished by events that occur afterwards!

Somer is absolutely correct. It is nearly impossible to have someone commmitted to a mental hospital. It doesn't matter how crazy they are. A psychitarist has no legal authority to commit someone to a mental institute. The only way someone can be committed is if the person is an immiminent threat to himself or others. That means that the person would have to be making verbal threats of an imminent nature. In other words, they would have to say that they were going to either kill themselves or kill someone else to be held. Otherwise, the person cannot be held.

With regard to the two girls that he was bothering, there is no evidence that he did anything that could have given him a felony conviction. He was bothering these two girls, but there is no evidence that he threathened them in any way. He was told to leave them alone and he did. There was no felony committed.

SOMER,GO AHEAD AND GET PERSONAL.Did I mention your name.I spoke generally about the mental health situation in this country.You give excuse after excuse,and try to change the subject to me etc.,but when it is all said and done,the worst Doctors in this country are Psychiatrists.They can't judge them on how well they do at getting people better.Why? Too few of them are good.IF THEY WERE WORTH A DAMN,Tom Cruise would never be able to say what he does.The fact is that these "professionals" generally do not get results,and if they did ,then people wouldn't wonder if Psychiatry works at all.Right now,it's a damn good question.For the most part,Psychiatrists in this country are getting paid without producing results.This field,and politics are the 2 fields that you don't have to get results in (to get paid.) You can say what you want about me,but the mental health industry in this country is pathetic.Simply pathetic.If you have an ill family member,or friend,you will see this too.For the typical mental health patient in this country,do you know how they test? They f'n don't.They ask the patient questions.Patient can say whatever they want to say about what is going on with them.That's the level of testing going on here.O.K...We are f'n talkin' paper cup n' string here.Then they start trying meds on them,and they don't usually do a damn thing,and usually make them worse.Then,after a while the Psychiatrist says we tried it all.You fkd up beyond repair.You are stable.That's enough.O.K.,HOW MANY ACTUAL DIAGNOSTIC TESTS HAVE I MENTIONED???.......That's right.......zero.........nada.

With the exception of serial killers, child molesters, and a few others, I'm reluctant to call someone "evil," especially someone clearly exhibiting mental illness. And mental illness is a tough thing- I think there's a fallacy in thinking mental illnesses are "curable." I think some are treatable, or controllable, but I think most are probably not curable. And it's hard to force someone to take medication or go to therapy. I've had manic-depressive friends who start taking medication, become very high-functioning, lovely people, and then stop taking it because they don't feel they need it, or they prefer the way they felt before. I want to shake them and say, "How can you not see how much the medication was helping? What's wrong with you?" But they just don't process the world the way I do.

So I don't know- I guess it's human nature to want right away to find someone to blame, and figure out what the "lesson" from the experience is, but sometimes I think terrible, awful things happen because they do. Which is horrible, and breaks hearts and leaves people behind to grieve and wonder why. And it leaves us feeling out of control of our world, which is scary. Is there a purpose or meaning behind it? Maybe; I don't know. But I don't think it was because this kid was evil. Messed up, without a doubt. But not evil.

O.K.,then just let nurses do it.If they don't help people very much(and I think in the great majority of cases they do not get results,)then put the doctors to use doing something else.Why have them riding a desk and giving out useless meds? A good nurse can do this......Right? Like I said ,they don't get results,but get paid like other doctors (that actually get something done.)

Well, how do we know for a fact that this kid wasn't evil? Just playing devil's advocate here.

For the most part,what you call evil people(PSYCHPATHS,OR SOCIOPATHS) are highly manipulative individuals.They certainly do talk to people.They manipulate the hell out of them..Be great if they were shy.

if evil doesn't apply to someone who cold-bloodedly shoots down people, killing 32, then i don't suppose it would apply to anyone. i'd say knowing about his writing, his garbage he put together that morning and sent to nbc--well, i feel comfortable calling that evil-just like ted bundy was evil.

Kinda how I saw it too, Deb... I'm not a psychiatrist, though.

Still can't believe this guy was able to buy those hollow point bullets(legally.)

That's because we live in a state that "equipment" is hard to come by!

whats the difference between a hollow point bullet and a regular bullet? anyone know? are they harder to buy?

hollow points used to be called "cop-killers". The hollows hit the target and spread out through the target, thus doing more damage!

man that sucks. why are they for sale? doesnt seem right...

This thing has fractured into a Trivial Pursuit game.





In fact it makes T.P. look like a college course.







BLECH!

It used to be that police used them in response to criminals using automatic weapons....but the entire system is out of whack now! Mort: if you're bored...just go sit by YOUR thread till someone comes by who's bored enough to answer you! What is it with you? The shotgun approach to all in your presence? Not good...

Shaaaaaa-dup.

"Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms said Cho bought about 100 rounds of hollow-point bullets, which rip terrible wounds in their victims. By the time Cho shot himself in the head, he had fired about 225 rounds of hollow points and other bullets."


I'm sorry,but a judge was able to see he was ill,and the Mental Health "professionals" dropped the ball that he passed to them.See,I am telling you people the truth.They just tell the Psychiatrist what he thinks he/she needs to hear,and that's it.He got to go buy his toys.There simply is a nationwide denial of the existence of mental illness.Basically,they told this guy to stop being depressed."Snap out of it"...........He snapped into it.They were willing to gamble that it would go another way.They treated this like it was a cold. Now you tell me,weren't these mental health professionals useless here? Yes,they were,and when they fail miserably at their job they go into cover your a-- mode,and say the laws don't allow them to do anything.I'M telling you that they are so bad at what they do that(even given the laws they want) they would have sent him home,and never followed up(just like they did here.) They are getting bailed out by using "the law is bad." They need to be held accountable,because they almost want to be snowed by these mental patients.They really don't want another mental patient to see for 15 minutes every couple months.

For sell? This sick pup bought 100 rounds.You in Virginia?Go get yours too.....Damn Hillbillies.

Give it a rest, Scuds. Most people in Virginia aren't hillbillies. That's West Virginia! :p

Actually "cop killers" are bullets that can penetrate body armour, they are strictly illegal. A hollow point is just as the name implies, the tip of the bullet is removed and the top hollowed out, when they strike they do indeed mushroom out, they can enter the body the size of a dime or less and mushroom to a huge area, usually they don't pass completely through the body rather do maximum damage internally, if they do exit, you can drive a truck through the opening they leave. I'm not sure of the legality of these but they should be illegal...they are useless in hunting (destroy the meat), their only value is to kill people. I once owned a 38 pistol and the guy who sold it to me gave me a box of 357 cal hollowpoints with it (you can fire 357 loads from a 38)...they were hand loads (he loaded them himself). I fired a few into a target...frightening to say the least. A shot even in an arm or leg with a bullet like that can kill.

Well,if the majority of people in a state don't care about a citizen buying a 100 rounds of hollow-points,then that's a Hillbilly State.WOULDN'T YOU AGREE? Some of these people would have survived if he had been forced to use less lethal bullets.There is no excuse for this part of this scenario that took place.You wanna say he slipped through cracks? Fine,but to let Joe Citizen buy hollow-points just amazes me.

Scuds...I'm not going to bother debating with a fool...yes, that's a personal statement but it's true. You know nothing about mental health, you just post mindless and false crap! I can only hope that folks, if they don't trust that I'm telling the truth, take the time to learn the facts for themselves.

You are correct,Somer..in my haste to add a response, I forgot about armor piercing part. Thanks!

I can't fire 357 loads from my .38... I think you can only do that with a .38 special.

Scuds, this could have been the case in ANY state.

No problem Timm, I figured you knew I just wanted to clarify. Guns and stuff aren't my strong suit, I just happened to have that pistol and those bullets in the past and I recall how lethal they were. I pretty much gave up guns after I got out of the Army, I gave that pistol to a friend about 17-18 years ago, I hope it never found itself into the wrong hands.

You are correct!

I was gonna say that!:D

i'd imagine they will close the loophole in the state law that allowed him to legally buy a handgun. if you can't buy the gun (well, he could have bought one illegally-no doubt would have if the gun shop wouldn't sell to him) then all the hollow point bullets in the world won't matter.

Well I admit to being ignorant about what to call this writing trick.What do you call this? He says something about somebody,but waits until it appears to be a complete sentence.......only then does he say "you brats" or "you snobs" Is there a name for that delay mechanism? Maybe this is actually 4 sentences.I don't know."You brats," and "you snobs" could each be a sentence.

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough,you brats.Your Golden Necklaces weren't enough,you snobs."


I see this sort of style used a lot in HIP HOP MUSIC.They will write something like the following:

"Got stuck in snow so damn cold broke a bowl....."

unlikely bedfellows???? here's hoping they can get this done! we don't need more gun laws, the ones we have need to work, and work everywhere! absolutely no one who is insane, a convicted felon, etc should be able to purchase a firearm. i don't wish to lose my rights due to creeps like cho-i only want people like cho to be kept from purchasing a gun, and making things tough on the rest of us.



House Democratic leaders are working with the National Rifle Association to bolster existing laws blocking mentally ill people from buying guns.

Lacking support to enact strong new gun measures even after the Virginia Tech shootings, Democrats are instead resurrecting legislation, which has drawn broad bipartisan support and NRA backing, that would improve the national background check system.

The measure, a version of which has passed the House in two previous Congresses but died in the Senate, could come to a House vote as early as next month. It would require states to supply more-thorough records, including for any mental illness-related court action against a would-be gun purchaser.

Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., a strong NRA ally who has been a leading opponent of most gun control legislation, is negotiating with the group on the background-check bill.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., has tapped Dingell and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y. — a leading gun control supporter whose husband was fatally shot by a deranged gunman on the Long Island Railroad — to broker a swift compromise measure that could win passage in the House and Senate.

McCarthy said the measure was the best the Democratic-controlled Congress could do even in the wake of the deadly shooting rampage Monday in which a disturbed gunman killed 32 and then himself.

"We're not going to do anything more on guns — it's just not going to happen. This is a pro-gun Congress," said McCarthy.

Current law bars people judged by a court to be "mentally incompetent" from purchasing firearms, but the federal background check database is incomplete, with many states far behind in automating their records and sending them to the FBI.

Cho Seung-Hui, the 23-year-old gunman in the recent shootings, should have failed his background checks and been barred access to guns after a Virginia special justice found in 2005 that his mental illness made him a danger to himself, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence said this week.

The measure being negotiated would subject states to possible penalties for failing to provide the information, and authorize new federal grants to help them do so.

"If we give the states what they need to enforce these limits, that's a big step," McCarthy said. "A computer is only as good as the information in it."

The measure has drawn bipartisan interest. Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, an NRA ally, is among the Republicans considering signing on.

Talks on the measure are extremely sensitive, given how little time has passed since Monday's shootings on the Blacksburg, Va., campus.

The legislation has spawned an unusual alliance between gun rights activists, who want background checks to be faster, and gun control advocates, who want them to be more accurate. Still, the NRA and some of its congressional allies are skittish about appearing to support any gun control measure in the wake of the Virginia Tech rampage.

"We have a potential opportunity to get something done that both sides have agreed (on) for a couple of years," said Peter Hamm, a Brady Campaign spokesman. "There's clearly a level of distrust that's as tall as Mount Everest between the two sides in this debate. We watch each other carefully."

Democratic Rep. Richard Boucher, who represents the southwestern Virginia district where the shootings unfolded, said he would not talk about gun policies until next week at the earliest, out of respect for the families of the victims. Like most lawmakers, Boucher wore a maroon and orange ribbon on his lapel Friday, set aside as a day of remembrance for the Virginia Tech tragedy.

Dingell would not comment on the talks Friday, nor would the NRA.

"This is not the time for political discussions, public policy debates or to advance a political agenda," the group said in a statement.

However, another gun rights group, the Gun Owners of America, is adamantly opposed to the legislation. It said the measure would allow the government to trample privacy rights by compiling reams of personal information and potentially bar mentally stable people from buying guns.

"The thing that most concerns us about this is our friends at the NRA are supporting it, and that could give Democrats cover in the election," said Larry Pratt, a spokesman for the group. "The NRA is making a mistake on this. This is a bill that could pass."

Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, a strong gun rights supporter, said he hasn't opposed the background check measure in the past and wouldn't expect to do so now.

Gun measures have been known to spin out of control in the freewheeling Senate — where any senator can seek to amend a bill. Any measure there would be looked upon as an opportunity for both gun control advocates eager to enact stronger limits and their foes pushing to weaken existing gun laws.

For Dingell's effort to succeed, Republicans and Democrats on both sides of the Capitol likely would have to agree to hold off on a broader gun debate and focus instead on the background-check measure.

"We need to be very careful that we don't intrude on the right of law-abiding and free citizens," Craig said. "We all search for the political screen of, 'Oh, we've got to do something and pass a law, and therefore the world will be a safer place.' Not necessarily."

YOU YOURSELF ADMITTED HE COULD PROBABLY HAVE GOTTEN A GUN.He may not have(if he was told he couldn't get one legally.) He seemed on a mission.So,lets assume he could have illegally gotten 1(not 2) guns.Now,lets assume the average joe blow couldn't buy a hundred rounds of hollow point bullets.O.K.,AS IT WAS,he didn't use all hollow points.He used about 40% hollow points.So,I think he may have been on a mission to get a gun(any way he could,) but the hollow point bullets were obtained only because he could get them.Obviously he didn't demand to have all hollow points.So,I think if they hadn't allowed hollow points to be purchased by a pistol buyer in Virgina,then probably half (or more) of these people would still be alive.I see the argument for selling hollow points to average citizens to be poor,but the argument in favor of selling them for use with a pistol.........that is pss poor indeed.