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-   -   NCLB-Education (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9552)

pgardn 02-07-2007 12:02 PM

The scary part about this to me is that our democratic system needs to have a significant number of educated people in order to function. The gap grows, the democracy becomes more unstable. I really dont like that trend.

So we need to do our best to help educate every child in the US. It is in our national interest. It should make everyone in this country uneasy if the % of uneducated adults continues to grow.

GenuineRisk 02-07-2007 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bababooyee
OK, after fully recovering from the near blackout...

Yes, some states (if not all? ) do provide for free public education (see, Im fair and willing to look stuff up).

GR, since I am short on time (and I can connect the dots if needed...but you seem smart enough), simply use a similar thought to your rationale wrt your defense of the "equality" of progressive taxation (equality...progressive - talk about oxymoron! ) and apply it to the situation here.

First of all, what's with the "my dear" in your earlier response to me? What are you, my 85-year-old grandfather? What next, you give me a quarter for candy and then put your thumb between your fingers and tell me you've stolen my nose? Geez louise.

B, we will have to agree to disagree on how we see the taxation thing, because, as I've said, people are all taxed equally; it's the money that is taxed differently. My pathetic below 40K income is taxed at exactly the same rate as Gates' first less-than-40K income. What is taxed more is the amount he makes above that. And if I made more, that amount of money would be taxed accordingly.

So what are you saying, Bababooyee? You don't think Americans should provide public education for our young people? What's your obsession with determining whether it's a right or a privilege? What does that have to do with school performance? You think it's unfair for poor kids to get an education? Is that what you're saying?

GenuineRisk 02-07-2007 01:14 PM

Editorial on rights from the Fort Wayne... Telegraph? Gazette? Journal? Mostly on second-hand smoke and laws, but some more general thoughts as well:

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journal...l/16566691.htm

Doesn't have anything to do with NCLB, however.

GenuineRisk 02-07-2007 01:22 PM

And the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, from 1948.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

GenuineRisk 02-07-2007 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bababooyee
I think it was supposed to be funny...I was woozy from shoveling snow for over an hour and had low blood sugar. Looks conry now, but cest la vie. Either way, lighten up. ;)

Sorry, I don't get Old Man humor so well yet. Consider me lightened. And what does "conry" mean? I'm not familiar with the term. Old people word? ;)

Like I said, I am accepting that for the purpose of this argument, and like I said, use a similar rationale and you can defend disparity in school quality based on disparity in property taxes paid. Like I said, I think you can connect the dots from here.

I have no idea what you are saying here. I was saying that to put blame for failing schools entirely on parents, without taking into account the inherent inequality in funding when school funding is based on property taxes, is not accurate. As a renter, I pay no property (read, school) taxes, and frankly, I should. I benefit from an educated populace, too.

Depends.

On what? That's no answer.

It is not an obsession. There is an important distinction (legally and philosophically) between the two. The fact that you want them to be the same (even really, really bad) doesn't make it so. And that you seem unwilling to explore the differences and remain in the dark is your problem, not mine.

:rolleyes: Feel better now?

No, because you didn't answer the question. But seeing as how I still don't know if you answered my question from months ago about Israel and the religious right, I guess I should expect this?

Bababooyee, the only thing that will keep society continuing to progress is people being willing to say that something, even if not enshrined yet in the Constitution, is a right. And if that something is morally correct, chances are, it will become one. I think people do have a right to an education, just as anti-slavery advocates once thought people had a right to be free. And suffragists once thought women had a right to a vote. Those didn't start as rights, but they became them. If we all shrugged, and said "Well, it's not in the Constitution as it stands now" and no one was willing to say, "But it should be" then I'd not be voting and Condi Rice, who many of you conservatives are touting on another board as Presidential caliber, would be calling Bush "Massah" instead of his wife calling her "Dr. Rice."

And sometimes we screw up (see Amendments 18 and 21 of the Constitution) but we must always be willing to work for it.

Education isn't a cure-all for society's ills, but it helps to level the playing field a bit. I'm all for it.

(If you did get around to the Israel thing, let me know and my apologies for missing that the thread had been updated)

GenuineRisk 02-07-2007 01:40 PM

And mondo apologies for being a complete moron at trying to put my responses in between quotes. I wish they'd taught me how to do that during my free education years...

GenuineRisk 02-07-2007 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bababooyee
I made it about half-way through that douchebaggery...what an idiot (or bunch of idiots).

BUT to be fair, I haven't been as discerning as I should be in defining "rights". My fault for lack of clarity...and the mess it has caused! Maybe we can narrow this all down for time's sake.

I actually didn't have much of an opinion about the editorial. What got you so steaming mad about it?

Downthestretch55 02-07-2007 01:57 PM

Well, well. well.
Good to see where this topic went.
Now, did I mention that I saw Elvis walking his pet groundhog while staring in amazement at the UFO that landed outside the subway station? Two of the three "aliens" were union members, one had tenure, and the other one had parents that didn't care about education at all, whether it was a right or a not, as long as they could ride their spaceship without helmets, and of course, dine in a restaurant where they could pass on their second hand smoke.
I heard that Elvis and the groundhog scored about the same on their standardized tests, so it looks like NCLB is safe.

Downthestretch55 02-07-2007 02:16 PM

Further reading. Don't bother if you're "reading challenged" as it's a bit long.
http://www.alternet.org/story/47674/

randallscott35 02-07-2007 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bababooyee
I made it about half-way through that douchebaggery...what an idiot (or bunch of idiots).

BUT to be fair, I haven't been as discerning as I should be in defining "rights". My fault for lack of clarity...and the mess it has caused! Maybe we can narrow this all down for time's sake.

Surely a new SAT word has been born.

Downthestretch55 02-07-2007 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Surely a new SAT word has been born.

Not just a new SAT word....clearly in violation of the "code of conduct".
Mods???

SentToStud 02-07-2007 03:47 PM

To whoever wrote this (before deleting?!?) or believes it:

"As a renter, I pay no property (read, school) taxes, and frankly, I should. I benefit from an educated populace, too...."



Huh?

Sorry, just because you pay no property tax doesn't mean your own tax dollars do not go toward education. Hardly. In every state I've lived in, state funding EXCEEDS local funding of public schools.

To further inform you, state school funding is provided through legislative act. I assure you that each of those laws includes language that "GUARANTEES each child an educational opportunity..."

To me, that language confers a right, not a privilege.

The purpose of state funding (which you pay for) is, in part, to "equalize" educational opportunies for students regardless of the local property tax revenues generated for each individual district.

Local property taxes do not fully fund public schools. Not even close.

SCUDSBROTHER 02-07-2007 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgardn
In this country, ever since I can remember, our educational system has been in crisis. If you look at almost every school that is large and does poorly on standardized tests, they very often are located in large urban areas with a low socioeconomic status. If you look at the families in these areas, the majority are broken with mom at the head and working... or worse.


If we know exactly where the people (who don't encourage their kids to learn) are living,then pay the females in that area to not breed.If they stay there, and don't use the money to better their situation,then atleast they won't be bringing innocent kids into the equation.If they have kids(without a father,) then they won't get paid what other women in the area are getting.
If there is a Father living with the child,then she continues to get paid(as long as the birth father is living with the child.)What will we have?

1)Women without kids(getting paid to stay that way.)

2)Women with kids and husbands(getting paid to stay together as a unit.)

3)Less n' less inner-city single parents that don't raise their kids well.

Downthestretch55 02-07-2007 04:23 PM

ummm....maybe I missed something.
Yes, one of the "posters" continues to happily reside on my ignore.
I don't respond unless someone quotes his words, no matter how divergent from the topic presented. No loss there.

So, is someone attempting to state that our society is better off without and educated populace?
If so, I'll just shake my head and walk away.
For those that resent supporting the education of our children...
"If you think education is expensive, consider the cost of ignorance."

Pray for peace and understanding. Help the children.
Smile more at others, even if they don't understand why you're doing so.
One act of kindness begins many more.
And learning is a life long process.
Keep faith in others as much as you do yourself.


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