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-   -   Obamacare (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43456)

clyde 08-21-2011 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 801865)
Except those that don't realize they are insane.



I read something about Obama's current advisor inner circle. You might notice things have changed a bit since Rahm left. He was definitely a strong attenuating political force in there. They recommend to him that he compromise down to get anything passed (considered a success), rather than take the strong necessary stand that will be met with complete opposition. Thus we get weak tea, like patent reform, rather than an aggressive jobs program.



Stockman has since repudiated it completely as the nonsense it is.



I'd characterize it as a plutocracy.
Baby....leave your home planet out of this,please.

dellinger63 08-22-2011 09:06 AM
Now here's an idea that will cost nothing, will actually save taxpayer money and put people to work at the same time. Don't agree with him all the time but bravo Sen. Hatch.


Quote:
Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, citing an independent survey on rising costs to businesses, said Friday Obamacare repeal must be “on the table in any discussions to jump start the nation’s lagging economy.”

The top Senate Finance Committee Republican said it was “critical” to the nation’s economy that President Barack Obama shift his focus from preparing a new job stimulus plan to ending the overhaul of the nation’s health care system.

“The partisan health law is an assault on Americans individual liberty … It’s an also an assault on our economy and on our job creators, as this survey of employers demonstrates,” Hatch said, referring to the survey released Friday by the National Business Group on Health, which membership includes many of the top Fortune 500 companies.

The survey found that healthcare benefit costs are expected to rise about 7.2 percent next year under the health law and that two-thirds of the cost increases in premiums would be passed on to employees. The survey of 83 of the nation’s largest corporations was conducted in June.

“The President announced that he’s preparing a so-called jobs plan that will include more stimulus spending,” Hatch said. “I’d suggest he stop the spending and turn to his job-killing, budget-busting health law instead. This $2.6 trillion law must be on the table in any discussion about reviving our weak economy.”

jms62 08-22-2011 09:17 AM
Why is it everything that Big Business wants they basically lead us to believe that when they get it the jobs crisis will be solved. When they actually get it Execs further enrich themselves and the job crisis still exists. They are playing us.

dellinger63 08-22-2011 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 801955)
Why is it everything that Big Business wants they basically lead us to believe that when they get it the jobs crisis will be solved. When they actually get it Execs further enrich themselves and the job crisis still exists. They are playing us.
You do realize your IRA or 401K, if typical, is primarily invested in ‘big business’? And small businesses especially those in service and manufacturing are also reliant on 'big business' as a client?

I'm far more inclined to believe the government is playing me rather than 'big business'. Specifically I believe my XOM stock is a safer, more conservative and potentially a far more profitable investment than the amount the fed is deducting from EVERY paycheck, I've EVER received with a current zero balance but a promise THEY will begin paying returns at an age and amount THEY will decide and change in the future. :zz:

Of course if I don't make it to THEIR movable finish line my investment is zero.

jms62 08-22-2011 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 801959)
You do realize your IRA or 401K, if typical, is primarily invested in ‘big business’? And small businesses especially those in service and manufacturing are also reliant on 'big business' as a client?

I'm far more inclined to believe the government is playing me rather than 'big business'. Specifically I believe my XOM stock is a safer, more conservative and potentially a far more profitable investment than the amount the fed is deducting from EVERY paycheck, I've EVER received with a current zero balance but a promise THEY will begin paying returns at an age and amount THEY will decide and change in the future. :zz:

Of course if I don't make it to THEIR movable finish line my investment is zero.
I didn't think it needed to be said that the government is playing us. It is a Given but it is NOT a Democrat or Republican Issue. You are getting it from both ends.

joeydb 08-22-2011 10:15 AM

Riot 08-22-2011 10:38 AM
Joey, the only thing you know about the Affordable Care Act are the false right-wing talking points you've been taught to repeat. The cartoon you posted is full of false shiat talking points from 2009, and has nothing to do with what was actually passed and what is in effect now.

There are no tax raises. There are no "death panels". There is no "delayed treatment".

Name three good - no, great - life-saving things that directly have affected and help people, that the act has already done. If you have any ability to have objective thought at all, you'll be able to do this.

Riot 08-22-2011 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 801953)
Now here's an idea that will cost nothing, will actually save taxpayer money and put people to work at the same time. Don't agree with him all the time but bravo Sen. Hatch.
It's nonsense. The first lie is that it will save people money to cancel the ACA. And I suggest you read that "survey" he's quoting and see it's objectivity - or not.

Geeshus, you Obama-haters are gullible.

dellinger63 08-22-2011 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 801974)
It's nonsense. The first lie is that it will save people money to cancel the ACA. And I suggest you read that "survey" he's quoting and see it's objectivity - or not.

Geeshus, you Obama-haters are gullible.
If it's such a saver why all the up-front money needed? Why the need for exemptions?

What do you suppose a policy for an unhealthy 40 year old, obese, smoker with high blood pressure, previous heart problems and a family history of strokes and heart attacks costs a year?

And why should a healthy, 40 year-old, jogger, who never smoked and has a family to support be forced to chip in for his policy?

Rid the program of 'subsidies' and I'm onboard. Of course the program is all about the subsidy right?

Patients need rights but they don't need to be forced to pay for other patients. In terms of cost, uninsured ER visits and treatment will never come close to this monstrosity.

joeydb 08-22-2011 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 801997)
What do you suppose a policy for an unhealthy 40 year old, obese, smoker with high blood pressure, previous heart problems and a family history of strokes and heart attacks costs a year?

And why should a healthy, 40 year-old, jogger, who never smoked and has a family to support be forced to chip in for his policy?
Why? Because it was dreamt up by the socialists in office at the time, that's why.

joeydb 08-22-2011 12:51 PM
Get ready: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbHh86HkBhk

Riot 08-22-2011 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 801997)
If it's such a saver why all the up-front money needed?
How is this remotely a serious question? Are you completely ignorant of how business works? Because when people work to set up systems, we pay them. We don't demand they work for free.

Quote:
Why the need for exemptions?
Because of Republican fear that, god forbid, one American pay one penny they don't want to for another American's well-being.

Did you pay zero attention during the healthcare debates? It sure seems like it.

Quote:
What do you suppose a policy for an unhealthy 40 year old, obese, smoker with high blood pressure, previous heart problems and a family history of strokes and heart attacks costs a year?
I don't know. Why don't you ask the private insurance companies that are going to continue to write those policies on the exchanges?

I assume you already know that won't have anything at all to do with you, as you are already insured.

Quote:
And why should a healthy, 40 year-old, jogger, who never smoked and has a family to support be forced to chip in for his policy?
Because that's what happens now with your insurance, and the ACA doesn't change that. Maybe you don't understand the concept of "groups" and "spread risk"?

Quote:
Rid the program of 'subsidies' and I'm onboard. Of course the program is all about the subsidy right?
So you' rather have people who are uninsured now, remain uninsured, than to pay for a portion of their health insurance? That's stupid. I want them to pay what they can, and stop costing me an arm and a leg by being uninsured, and having me cover 100% of their cost to go to the ER now. I'm paying for them now, and they can start paying a fair share. You are against that? Ridiculous.

Quote:
Patients need rights but they don't need to be forced to pay for other patients. In terms of cost, uninsured ER visits and treatment will never come close to this monstrosity
Really? Prove it. Quote actual figures. Because every other financial organization that has looked at it has scored your contention as false.

Stop pretending to know anything about health care and the ACA and have "reasons" to dislike the ACA. It's clear you do not. You never mention anything factual. Just say you hate Obama, and everything he is associated with. That would be at least be respectable due to honesty.

dellinger63 08-22-2011 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802068)
How is this remotely a serious question? Are you completely ignorant of how business works? Because when people work to set up systems, we pay them. We don't demand they work for free.



Because of Republican fear that, god forbid, one American pay one penny they don't want to for another American's well-being.

Did you pay zero attention during the healthcare debates? It sure seems like it.



I don't know. Why don't you ask the private insurance companies that are going to continue to write those policies on the exchanges?

I assume you already know that won't have anything at all to do with you, as you are already insured.



Because that's what happens now with your insurance, and the ACA doesn't change that. Maybe you don't understand the concept of "groups" and "spread risk"?



So you' rather have people who are uninsured now, remain uninsured, than to pay for a portion of their health insurance? That's stupid. I want them to pay what they can, and stop costing me an arm and a leg by being uninsured, and having me cover 100% of their cost to go to the ER now. I'm paying for them now, and they can start paying a fair share. You are against that? Ridiculous.



Really? Prove it. Quote actual figures. Because every other financial organization that has looked at it has scored your contention as false.

Stop pretending to know anything about health care and the ACA and have "reasons" to dislike the ACA. It's clear you do not. You never mention anything factual. Just say you hate Obama, and everything he is associated with. That would be at least be respectable due to honesty.

Stop sticking your head in the sand. Partially funding the 40 year old fat smoker is just part of the bill. How about the full funding of the 40-year-old fat smoker who lives by a pole? Why should the 40-year-old healthy nonsmoker, trying to do the best for his family and educate his children, with a shrinking home value and retirement account be asked for more?

You want free birth control pills included in your policy? Write it that way! No co-pays with certain drugs? Pay for it!

Just as no one needs to be involved in someone’s' bedroom they need to stay out of someone’s purse and wallet!

How about Buffett & Co. put up the up-front money and prove the conservatives wrong?

Best political move, if it works, evaahhhhhhh. :D

dino 08-23-2011 05:23 AM
I agree with everything Riot says. Even though I have to wake up at 5am every morning to go to work and usually don't get home before 7pm I think the most important thing to me is to support everyone that doesn't feel like working. Now I'm not talking about the people that have worked hard all their lives and are having hard times with the Obama economy, I'm talking anout the scum that drags down this country. Those are the people I work my ass off for. Screw my 2 sons. Why should I help them out with their college bills when I can spend my hard earned money on some lazy bum that Riot obviously doesn't want to help out as long as he can have someone else take care of them, I don't know him but he's probably a typical Liberal that has no black friends, gives no money to charity and has never donated an hour of his life to public service. I'm surrounded by those people in NY

joeydb 08-23-2011 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dino (Post 802176)
I agree with everything Riot says. Even though I have to wake up at 5am every morning to go to work and usually don't get home before 7pm I think the most important thing to me is to support everyone that doesn't feel like working.
:tro: Excellent, succinct description of modern day socialism and the beliefs of its high priests in the Democratic party.

Danzig 08-23-2011 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802068)
How is this remotely a serious question? Are you completely ignorant of how business works? Because when people work to set up systems, we pay them. We don't demand they work for free.



Because of Republican fear that, god forbid, one American pay one penny they don't want to for another American's well-being.

Did you pay zero attention during the healthcare debates? It sure seems like it.



I don't know. Why don't you ask the private insurance companies that are going to continue to write those policies on the exchanges?

I assume you already know that won't have anything at all to do with you, as you are already insured.



Because that's what happens now with your insurance, and the ACA doesn't change that. Maybe you don't understand the concept of "groups" and "spread risk"?



So you' rather have people who are uninsured now, remain uninsured, than to pay for a portion of their health insurance? That's stupid. I want them to pay what they can, and stop costing me an arm and a leg by being uninsured, and having me cover 100% of their cost to go to the ER now. I'm paying for them now, and they can start paying a fair share. You are against that? Ridiculous.



Really? Prove it. Quote actual figures. Because every other financial organization that has looked at it has scored your contention as false.

Stop pretending to know anything about health care and the ACA and have "reasons" to dislike the ACA. It's clear you do not. You never mention anything factual. Just say you hate Obama, and everything he is associated with. That would be at least be respectable due to honesty.
all well and good...except for this part:


overall, obamacare will cause a 127 billion dollar increase in spending by 2020. where will that money come from? that's the difference between the savings in medicare, but the corresponding increased cost of medicaid. obamacare isn't a foolproof plan at all, and certainly isn't the savings that was trumpeted at the time it was passed. all they talked about was the savings to medicare-and that's true. the increase in medicaid isn't mentioned much, is it?
and i also read that obama and his admin are wanting the supreme court to hold off on any obamacare case until after the next election. that if the portion of the law that requires you to purchase insurance is struck down, it takes the whole law down as it will then have to be reworked. that they might try to get the appeals court to re-hear the case as one way to slow it from reaching the supreme court as quickly.

joeydb 08-23-2011 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 802192)
and i also read that obama and his admin are wanting the supreme court to hold off on any obamacare case until after the next election. that if the portion of the law that requires you to purchase insurance is struck down, it takes the whole law down as it will then have to be reworked. that they might try to get the appeals court to re-hear the case as one way to slow it from reaching the supreme court as quickly.
I hope Chief Justice Roberts gives Obama a nice two word message (not "Happy Birthday") on waiting to hear the case.

Nothing we can do about the appeals re-hearing if that in fact requires a delay in the Supreme Court.

Funny how it's always about that next election, isn't it? I mean, both sides play that game, but in this case it doesn't matter how unconstitutional or ineffective toward improving health the law will be, as long as it's after the next election.:rolleyes:

Danzig 08-23-2011 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydb (Post 802199)
I hope Chief Justice Roberts gives Obama a nice two word message (not "Happy Birthday") on waiting to hear the case.

Nothing we can do about the appeals re-hearing if that in fact requires a delay in the Supreme Court.

Funny how it's always about that next election, isn't it? I mean, both sides play that game, but in this case it doesn't matter how unconstitutional or ineffective toward improving health the law will be, as long as it's after the next election.:rolleyes:
asking the appellate court to reconsider the case is one delaying tactic. of course the hope would be that they change their decision, which would be a slim chance at best.

all i know regarding politics is that the adage of 'how great the sin when someone else commits is' really fits pols well. they both engage in the same tactics, and they both reproach the other for doing so.

Riot 08-23-2011 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dino (Post 802176)
I agree with everything Riot says. Even though I have to wake up at 5am every morning to go to work and usually don't get home before 7pm I think the most important thing to me is to support everyone that doesn't feel like working. Now I'm not talking about the people that have worked hard all their lives and are having hard times with the Obama economy, I'm talking anout the scum that drags down this country. Those are the people I work my ass off for. Screw my 2 sons. Why should I help them out with their college bills when I can spend my hard earned money on some lazy bum that Riot obviously doesn't want to help out as long as he can have someone else take care of them, I don't know him but he's probably a typical Liberal that has no black friends, gives no money to charity and has never donated an hour of his life to public service. I'm surrounded by those people in NY
You agree with not what I actually say, but with the imaginary talking points in your head. Nice try.

Riot 08-23-2011 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydb (Post 802187)
:tro: Excellent, succinct description of modern day socialism and the beliefs of its high priests in the Democratic party.
C'mon - this simply isn't factually true. Go learn the definition of Socialism, for starters - then come back and point out where it exists - and go see how Obama doesn't act in the beliefs of the Democratic party a good amount of the time.


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