I have a feeling Street Sense would be held in even lower esteem if he had been back as a 4YO. I thought his last four races were pretty forgettable.

NT

Sightseek is the best horse ever! better?

I wouldn't give the horse extra "greatness points" if you will, but if the horse is being managed like Teuflesburg a few years ago I'll appreciate that horse more than say a Zensational.

It doesn't tilt the greatness scale in any way for me but, watching a horse win easily is a beautiful thing, and I prefer front-runners to closers.

Don't lie to me!

It's one thing to say she isn't the best ever, but to say that she was 0-5 at Santa Anita is sort of conveniently forgetting to mention some pretty fabulous races she ran.

If you have "ability as a dirt horse" #1," does that mean that there can't be a great turf horse, or mybe that you would be unlikely to call many turf horses great? Weren't Ribot and Alleged great horses? Perhaps Manila too?
Especially now with the # of synthetic surfaces, if a horse demonstrated tremendous ability on turf and synthetic, for example, I could classify the horse as "great" even if it never performed on dirt, or performed poorly in a couple of attempts.

Other than that I basically agree.

1. Ability to beat good horses
2. Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances
3. Ability to run fast figures
4. Ability to win major races
5. Ability to handle a wide range of distances

I hear ya - but I never really understood why almost everyone seems to most associate Cigar with the toughness and consistentcy traits instead of Skip Away... considering they were both from about the same time period.

I always thought Skip Away was clear cut the toughest and most consistant SOB of the 90's.

Skip Away was stakes placed four times at age 2 - twice just missing in Graded Stakes races.

At age 3, he won the Blue Grass by 6 lengths in his final Ky Derby prep, the eventual Preakness winner finished 2nd. The eventual Belmont winner finished 3rd.

He ran in all 3 triple crown races .. as well as the Ohio Derby, Haskell, Travers, and Woodbine Million, before defeating the older Cigar in the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

At age 4, he made 11 starts - 10 times running a Beyer of 112 or better - 9 times running a 115 or better and capped off the season with a 6 length Breeders Cup Classic win.

At age 5, he won 7 of his 9 starts - 5 of which at the Grade 1 level. Carried as much as 131 pounds and raced in all the different major regions of the country.


Cigar was extremely tough and consistant ... but it lasted a little less than 2 years... and he certainly didn't see anything like the brilliant level of competition Skip Away had to put up with throughout his entire career.

I can photoshop a picture of her winning the Big Cap by 12 lengths over Tiznow!

:rolleyes:

It makes it tougher for a turf horse to earn the great label... but certainly they still can because it's only one factor .. even if it's my most important one.

Look at the record Euro's have had against our best turf horses.

A horse like Manila may have struck out with my #1 factor ... but he hit almost all of the important ones out of the ball park .. he's a no-brainer great horse... and look at all the trouble he had getting into the Hall of Fame.

I think people forget how good Skip Away really was because as you mentioned, he wasn't flashy. He had a terrible pedigree, an odd action, and really just ground you into the ground. I never liked him until he retired and I looked back on his career and realized how many really good/great horses he beat over what these days is a long career.

Away from Santa Anita - she was 12-for-14 on dirt... one of her losses was a good 2nd to Azeri as a 3/5 favorite ... the other was a non-effort on a sloppy track.

She had great ability and was an awesome figure horse for sure ... but her case for greatness is a cut or two below Lava Man and two or three cuts above Rock Hard Ten.

Ok, that is better. :o

Her last two races at SA were horrible for her, but her earlier 3 races received beyers of 101, 105 and 108 - that is like freak figures in this day and age!

Speaking of Lava Man...for me, he sort of fits into the latter part of your first post where your judgment on a particular horse can depend on circumstances and connections.

Where would you put a horse like Formal Gold?

1. Smart Strike as your sire
2. Belva as your damn
3. Be foaled on April 10, 2002

Top 5 factors:

1. Ability as a dirt horse (Elite)
2. Ability to beat good horses (beat super horses with ease)
3. Ability to run fast figures (Elite)
4. Ability to be consistant and hold form (Fail)
5. Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances (Never faced any major adversity in his big races)

Probably too many flaws to consider a great horse ... but certainly an all-time great talent.

Ability of a horse that can run and win at sprints as well as routes.
Ability of a horse that can run and win as a closer, stalker or front runner.

Ghostzapper

I only see two on that list that I could consider great. They are both still in training. I think we have to go back to Skippy for the last great horse in the US

I still think Azeri and Sightseek can beat Zenyatta any day.