I also dont think they should be able to adopt children or get married.

I refuse to hate someone for their choice in religion or sexuality. I may not always agree with another person's choice, but there is absolutely NO reason to hate another person for their choice in the above two categories. To place blame on a person for someone else attacking them is ludicrous. I don't give a flying phuck WHAT they are doing in public... NOBODY deserves to be attacked for choosing a certain religion or sexuality. I could give two shiats what another person chooses... it has ZERO to do with my choice and is not harming me (or my child.)

I guess I used the "" in the wrong part. I meant all the "ignorant straights" not that all straights are ignorant! I know better!!

Jamie

You are comfortable taking you kid around a couple gays cuddling at a park? You wouldnt find it offensive if two men kissed in front of your son?

And how is this hurting you?

Well... I know several gay couples who have adopted children and I can assure you that they are better parents to those children than most parents in a 'normal' situation. I think that if the child is treated with love and respect, fed and clothed and taught moral values then it's OK. It's a popular misconception that a child raised in a gay environment will 'turn' gay. I believe it's more hereditary. I have about (give or take a few) ten gay friends... because I hang out with them, does that make me gay? The last time I checked, I was straight as an arrow...

No more offensive than a straight couple doing it... either way (you obviously don't have children), I have to explain to my child what is going on. Would I have a problem if they were having sex in the park? Yes... and I'd have a problem with it if there was a straight couple having sex in the park. I think you're reaching here, R...

Since when is teaching moral values accepting homosexuality?

It hurts me because it hurts the children.

Its ridiculous to think a child has the capacity to understand homosexuality, they dont. It will cause confusion, doubt, insecurity, etc. I cant think of many situations worse than having a kid teased his entire life because he had two parents of the same sex. Can you imagine being that child growing up in school? I think instead of trying to be liberal and accepting, sometimes people have to have some common sense. Common sense will tell you thats not the environment to raise a child.

Im not reaching at all, if a straight couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. If a gay couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. Brian is saying thats a hate crime. I say its a well deserved beating.

And letting some cracked out whorehound raise the child IS?

You don't just wake up one morning and say... "Hey, I think I'll be gay." The same way you have an instinctual nature to be attracted to women (are you, by the way?), gay people have that instinctual attraction to members of their own sex.

By the way, please don't confuse me with being liberal... I am the farthest thing from. I just don't see how someone else being gay has a negative impact on MY life.

So you're saying that all gays are attacked because they're having sex in public? This isn't like someone is just saying something. People are being KILLED. BIG difference. Come on...

As long as I've been alive, I've NEVER seen gay people make any more of a spectical of themselves in public than straight people. Never. Gay people are attacked because of the way they appear. That's not right IMO.

It shouldnt have any impact on anyones life. Exactly my point, it should be kept behind closed doors. I dont care if someone is gay, I simply dont want to see it, and there shouldnt be any special laws for gays.

A drug addict, or abuser, or any other kind of unfit parent shouldnt be allowed to have children either. Its a gift to have a child, they deserve to be brought up in a sane environment.

Yes, I am attracted to women.

Um, not so much. Well played again though.

Seeing two men holding hands on a street, and following then home and killing them after screaming anti-gay obscenities at them on the street is a hate crime.

Running people off or "saying something" or "slapping someone" is not a hate crime, even if it's a Black Jewish South African Homosexual you just slapped.

Let me go get you some examples of what a hate crime looks like, since these concepts are clearly all hypothetical in your head.

:p

As for special laws, I'll be honest, I really don't know how I feel about that... I do know that I think it's reverse racism to have scholarships for african americans, hispanics etc. So maybe I agree with you on there being no special laws for any particular group. I think hate crimes should be outlawed PERIOD.

Of course I see where you're coming from. The run-up to the vote has been interesting to watch because I've been following it and what both sides have been saying about it.

I think that it speaks to your earlier post about the spirit of fairness and how other laws are already on the books. Of course there is always the potential that these laws will get interpreted very loosely by a DA, but there is the potential that they will get loosely interpreted when regarding race and religion as well, which is why I think your earlier post was very important. If there are no hate crime laws at all, that is very much one thing -- but if they continue to exist to protect certain subsets of the population, then I see no reason why they should not also protect a group who accounts for ~16% of all crimes that are already considered hate crimes (at the state level in states that already have these statutes on the books).

I just find it disingenuous that there are so many groups who are already covered by these laws that have people who say "all crimes are hate crimes," but do nothing to get their existing protections scrapped from the books. Those sorts of actions are what make proponents of this bill see those who vote against it and the president who veto it as homophobes or bigots -- because they are denying protection to a group who is very much attacked in the United States based on who they are, while they are enjoying protection from attacks based on who they are. Something doesn't add up there, and if it's not about homophobia or bigotry then what is it as long as we have other existing protected subsets on the books?

I've stayed out of this thread for a while, though I've enjoyed reading the opinions expressed.
I am not gay, but I have friends and family that are.
It seems to me that "hate" has origins in "fear".
When the fear is addressed, maybe the hate will be resolved.
Not likely, but one only hopes.
Here's an interesting article:
http://advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid44550.asp

The Jerry Falwells know exactly the "buttons" to push.
Unfortunately, the effectiveness of their "arguements" is equally as obvious and pathetic.


Also, if someone would go to page 3 of this and bring up "Honeybee news", since whatever I post doesn't come back to the top for some reason, and type a response, it would be much appreciated.


Now, lets go RACIN'!

I'm staying out of this argument because when I see hate and ignorance I tend to call folks on it and that only degrades the quality of a debate, Baba brings up good points and I agree that in a perfect world, we wouldn't need "hate crime laws" but obviously they are on the books so we have a simple choice: repeal them all or cover all "at risk" groups. When I read "being gay is a choice" or "they bring violence on themselves", there isn't much of a constructive nature I can say...children aren't born to hate they have to be taught, obviously some folks have been taught well and sadly, will probably pass it on to their kids. It remains a mystery to me why who sleeps with who is more important to folks than who is abusing, beating or killing who.

Its mental abuse being raised in a gay family.

You really are a bigot aren't you? Why do you hate gays so much? And please, don't bother to deny what your posts clearly show...