Riot is not saying that the drug can be GIVEN on race day, only that it is allowable in minute amounts in the horses system on race day.

Are there other masking agents that you would know of? Is it a possibilty in your opinion? We've heard about it in other sports.

However, again 4 prominant Trainers have had significant suspensions for using this particular drug, it seems mepivacaine is certainly not allowable when adminstered illegally.

perhaps I missed it, I didn't see any post where someone said it is okay...it should not be given on raceday because it is a strong anesthetic that absolutlely will eliminate pain in an affected joint or foot or whatever. But like Chuck pointed out it is also a valuable diagnostic tool when trying to pinpoint lameness in an animal, and it wears off in several hours (not clears the system).

probably, but I just barely passed chemistry...I don't know what they are.

I did too....barely. :zz:

I guess I just don't want to subscribe to the theory that all horses are racing on hay, oats and water. ;)

Well, my intention in that post wasn't to assert that Pletcher definitively used local anesthetics to block horses. I was just pointing out that, regardless of it being outdated, the NY rule was in a affect and he violated it. Hence the mepivicaine level, however minute, was "significant". Not significant (perhaps) in terms of performance enhancement, but certainly significant in terms of post-race testing.

My second point was that, while a legal and therapeutic medication, local anesthetics such as mepivicaine and procaine can alter soundness dramatically in a short time frame (whether or not no one in their right mind would use them) and thus, IMO, positives of that nature are not on par with things like tranquilizers or anti-inflammatories or muscle relaxants that are more obvious management snafu's.

Just for the record, whoever I was responding to originally did bring up a good point, that there is a huge difference between a positive for a therapeutic medication and one for an altogether illegal medication. All positives are not created equal, and the public should be aware of this. At the same time, however, I don't think that all therapeutic positives are necessarily created equal, either.

It's funny that you can say that its incorrect to assume that a drug positive is definitive proof that there was an attempt to affect performance, but then turn around and say that a drug found at a certain level is definitive proof that there wasn't an attempt to affect performance.

How are these threshold levels determined? Is the research conducted on racehorses? Is the treatment protocol identical to how someone would use it illegally just prior to a race? I doubt it.

Local anesthetics, as the name suggest, are deposited locally and not typically administered directly into a vein, and yet the blood is what is tested. What if I administer a less-than-recommended dose (who says those are necessarily accurate either?) in a single site 4-6 hours prior to post? Since local anesthetics last several hours, couldn't that be sufficient to enhance performance, and if so, is that enough of a time frame to allow drug to be absorbed into the blood stream such that it would test?

Maybe they should think about taking blood samples 2 or 3 days after a race, too.

Great example. Let's compare Asmussen's positive for mepivicaine to Pletchers. Asmussens' has to be (based upon the above info) at least 750 nanograms per ml, but probably a bit higher. But we'll give him the minimum it could be as 750 ng/ml.

Asmussen: 750 ng/ml or higher
Pletcher: 1.6 ng/ml

The allowable level of mepivicaine in California (yes, there are allowable levels that can be found post-raceday test, and they follow what the RMTC wants) is up to 10 nanograms per ml

So again, let's look at who the "horse dopers with mepivicaine" are:

Asmussen horse: 750 ng/ml or higher
Pletcher horse: 1.6 ng/ml
Allowable level in CA and RMTC: 10 ng/ml

No way will I call Pletcher a "horse doper" with mepivicaine based upon the above facts.

As to what the trainers have to deal with - the inconsistency - until the RMTC standards are adopted nationally, look at the following examples:

Mepivicaine allowable dose may be given:
CA: 50 milligrams subcutaneously 96 hours ( 4 days) before post time
FL: 200 milligrams subcutaneously 168 hours (7 days) before post time
MD: no specified dose or route, withdrawal 5 to 7 days
KY: no specified dose or route, withdrawal 96 hours (4 days)

Am I gonna jump on a trainer for a mepivicaine positive of 1.6 ng/ml, when the RMTC allows up to 10 ng/ml to be found race day? No.

Do I think differently of Pletcher's mepivicaine positive, compared to Asmussens? Absolutely.

Masking agents are useless when you are testing at the nanogram and picogram levels. Not that lidocaine would be considered a masking agent. I have said a million times that 95% of the time the drugs that you hear about are not the real problem, it is the ones that there is no testing for or even an awareness level by the authorities for.

In this instance the medication was used on raceday in an attempt to break the rules. Supposedly the shot was to the throat to try to get a horse with breathing problems through a race. (the horse ran up the track as the fav which is why it was tested) According to the information I received about the incident which is from an extremely reliable source, they had been getting away with this until the LA lab began a different test for the drug where before it had not been detected which is why the levels were so high.

The difference in other sports is the allowable levels are far greater than the allowable levels in horses. A masking agent is usually used to just dilute the sample. Not to mention that there is a thousand times more research done on human testing than there is on horses. The recent NFL suspensions were for th presense of masking agents, a diuretic used for weight loss. It is debatable that it would even mask most drugs ested for.

I understand where you are coming from. But racing has done a terrible job of creating fair, uniform and reasonable regulations and has done an even worse job of explaining the system (though if I had a system like they do i would be embarrassed to try to explain it too). Just the fact that NY had neglected to alter it's rule to come into line with modernized testing is embarrasing. The truth of the matter is that the system is so screwed up and arbitrary that if you understand the medications, levels, suggested withdrawls and tesing procedures you could make the analogy of driving down the highway where the speed limits change every few miles but there are no signs to tell you when. Then when you get the ticket there are are rumors that you may have killed someone too because you were caught speeding. Maybe that doesnt make sense to some but the Pletcher mevipicaine positive was really a bad deal for him. The latest though was an error IMO in judgement by Pletcher for taking a chance with a highly volitile medication regardless of what the vet said. But the procaine found in minute levels would have no effect on performance. The big issue horse racing faces is that they really need to explain to everyone that these positives are very rarely performance enhancing and then explain why they are positives if they arent. I for one would like to hear an explanation because everytime I go to a meeting conserning medication with state authorities I ask for a clarification and never get an answer that doesnt involve stammering about funding for research or horseman wanting liberal regulations or some other form of passing the buck.

Here's a question, when you train a horse and you see a trainer winning at 35-40% entering in the same race let's use Wayne Catalano as an example, how do you resist not levelling the playing field? Do you scratch...It can't be fun running for second purse. The reason I ask is what goes on in the mindet of the Trainer's playing it straight.

Good point, that's why we are left speculating who the juicers are and aren't. Any heady horseplayer knows who they are, with or without drug positives.

Mepivicane is also used as a diagnostic tool to find lameness , you block a horse out starting at the foot and work your way up until it blocks out or not .
My thought on the Mepivicane positive is that most likely one of the Asst. had a horse blocked out found the problem treated it and then perhaps didnt bother to tell the boss exactly when the horse was blocked to avoid being entered too early , the boss entered and boom he gets a positive, because I just cant imiagine someone actually thinking they could get away with treating a horse with Mepivicane for a race and thinking thay can get away with it , at least not at the level TAP races at. Once again Im sticking with knocking all the Asst, Trainers heads together and telling them to either pull their heads out of their ass or leave. Its just plain retarded that someone cant keep track of what the hell is going on.

you might have a reasonable point except this was WAIT A WHILE... maybe the best horse in his entire barn and everyone knew where her next start would be, in what race, on what day.

Exactly my point......

so you think the asst trainer f*cked up and gave her the medvipcane too close to race time and didn't tell him for fear of getting fired or something?