What if the Jockey Club allowed AI?

[lemondropkid1]

I've read a lot of articles since Monday about Barbaro, and 2 topics keep coming up: cloning and AI. I'm putting absolutely no weight on this as it would be pointless to clone Barbaro and AI is not allowed, so no point in keeping any semen either. But one of the horse racing correspondants for MSNBC even said in an interview "I have to believe that at some point they've collected Barbaro's semen". This got me thinking about this.

What would happen to the breeding industry of AI were allowed? Would stud fees be affected? Or would anything at all change? I'm not voicing an opinion either way on this, just curious about what anyone involved in the industry thinks.

[GenuineRisk]

I've read a lot of articles since Monday about Barbaro, and 2 topics keep coming up: cloning and AI. I'm putting absolutely no weight on this as it would be pointless to clone Barbaro and AI is not allowed, so no point in keeping any semen either. But one of the horse racing correspondants for MSNBC even said in an interview "I have to believe that at some point they've collected Barbaro's semen". This got me thinking about this.

What would happen to the breeding industry of AI were allowed? Would stud fees be affected? Or would anything at all change? I'm not voicing an opinion either way on this, just curious about what anyone involved in the industry thinks.

Genetically speaking, it would serverely limit any sort of remaining diversity in the breed because one popular stud could produce thousands and thousands and thousands of foals.

Here's The Explainer on Slate on the question:

http://www.slate.com/id/2158610?nav=tap3

[slotdirt]

I don't know though, if you're still paying $500,000, I doubt there's going to suddenly be a glut of Storm Cat foals out there simply because artificial insemenation was allowed.

[cmorioles]

What does artificial intelligence have to do with breeding. With some of these matings, AI surely is being used already. ;)

[lemondropkid1]

What does artificial intelligence have to do with breeding. With some of these matings, AI surely is being used already. ;)

LOL, that's funny. My boyfriend trains horses and went to an ag college, so he's always referring to it as AI. The first time he said it, that movie with Haley Joel Osment popped into my head.

[sumitas]

It would make it more affordable for breeders to mate to their preferred stallion. If you are in NY and there is a stallion in La...now you don't mate because of the travel...With AI you could.

[paisjpq]

the short answer is that there isn't much point debating the merits of AI because it will NEVER happen with the thoroughbred breed...not because of any great concern for the animal but because it would devestate the entire industry which relys on the boarding of mares and foals...they wield the most power and they will not let it happen.

[cmorioles]

I wouldn't say never. It is obviously already done with s-breds. If the Arabs start to demand a higher number of horses from a certain stallion...

[paisjpq]

I wouldn't say never. It is obviously already done with s-breds. If the Arabs start to demand a higher number of horses from a certain stallion...
perhaps I should have said never sanctioned and endorsed...as the state breds that do it shouldn't be eligible for registration...

[slotdirt]

Quarterhorses are also able to be bred by artificial means.

[CapperZeke]

I had no idea Allen Iverson even liked horses.

[Cajungator26]

It would have been very tough (if not nearly impossible) for them to obtain semen from Barbaro. It requires this...

http://www.equimount.com/how_to/step10.jpg

I worked on a Trahehner farm one summer, breeding stallions to one of those things, and let me tell you, it's just as tough on a stallion's hind legs. They get really into it. LOL :p

[GenuineRisk]

I don't know though, if you're still paying $500,000, I doubt there's going to suddenly be a glut of Storm Cat foals out there simply because artificial insemenation was allowed.

The stud fees would likely drop on all sires because the stud farms could make up in quanity what they'd lose in lowering the stud fees. I absolutely think there would be a glut of popular sires if it were permitted- suddenly, supply can absoultely meet demand.

But I agree that it's not likely to happen any time soon, if ever. Too much money in breeding as it is to change. I imagine SBs and QHs permit it because they're much smaller and the breeding industry doesn't call the shots in those industries? (purely a guess; I don't know much about either one)

[SniperSB23]

The stud fees would likely drop on all sires because the stud farms could make up in quanity what they'd lose in lowering the stud fees. I absolutely think there would be a glut of popular sires if it were permitted- suddenly, supply can absoultely meet demand.

But I agree that it's not likely to happen any time soon, if ever. Too much money in breeding as it is to change. I imagine SBs and QHs permit it because they're much smaller and the breeding industry doesn't call the shots in those industries? (purely a guess; I don't know much about either one)

Couldn't they allow AI and cap the number of mares that can use one stallion each breeding season?

[paisjpq]

It would have been very tough (if not nearly impossible) for them to obtain semen from Barbaro. It requires this...


I worked on a Trahehner farm one summer, breeding stallions to one of those things, and let me tell you, it's just as tough on a stallion's hind legs. They get really into it. LOL :p

it's not impossible to collect them from the ground though...we used to collect an older morgan without him mounting the phantom...he just came into the shed took a sniff of the mare and voila.

but he is obviously the exception to the rule...in fact he is still fertile and breeding a few mares a year at 32 :eek:

[paisjpq]

Couldn't they allow AI and cap the number of mares that can use one stallion each breeding season?

the problem goes beyond the number of mares on stud can breed...AI eliminates the transportation of mares (huge business in KY) and the boarding of mares (huge business in a couple of states)...it would enable someone like me to own a mare and keep it at home in my backyard and still have the opportunity to breed to a stallion in Kentucky...the farms would lose a lot of revenue...and jobs would be lost etc... IMO it is all about $$ and jobs not the breed itself...it just sounds better to argue the breed aspects..

[Cajungator26]

it's not impossible to collect them from the ground though...we used to collect an older morgan without him mounting the phantom...he just came into the shed took a sniff of the mare and voila.

but he is obviously the exception to the rule...in fact he is still fertile and breeding a few mares a year at 32 :eek:

Yeah, I know they could have (forgive me for the lack of better words) jacked him off, but it would have been tough in his case, because he'd never bred a mare to begin with. We had to train most of the younger stallions to learn how to mount the phantom. Once they got the hang of it, it was "love" at first sight. HAHA :D

[SniperSB23]

the problem goes beyond the number of mares on stud can breed...AI eliminates the transportation of mares (huge business in KY) and the boarding of mares (huge business in a couple of states)...it would enable someone like me to own a mare and keep it at home in my backyard and still have the opportunity to breed to a stallion in Kentucky...the farms would lose a lot of revenue...and jobs would be lost etc... IMO it is all about $$ and jobs not the breed itself...it just sounds better to argue the breed aspects..

It sucks for people that have to find new jobs but that sounds like the best part of it to me.

[Cajungator26]

Found this article...

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_013007/content/animal_rights_update_3.guest.html

[Thoroughbred Fan]

I've read a lot of articles since Monday about Barbaro, and 2 topics keep coming up: cloning and AI. I'm putting absolutely no weight on this as it would be pointless to clone Barbaro and AI is not allowed, so no point in keeping any semen either. But one of the horse racing correspondants for MSNBC even said in an interview "I have to believe that at some point they've collected Barbaro's semen". This got me thinking about this.

What would happen to the breeding industry of AI were allowed? Would stud fees be affected? Or would anything at all change? I'm not voicing an opinion either way on this, just curious about what anyone involved in the industry thinks.

You'd run out of names that start with Storm or end with Cat!

[paisjpq]

Yeah, I know they could have (forgive me for the lack of better words) jacked him off, but it would have been tough in his case, because he'd never bred a mare to begin with. We had to train most of the younger stallions to learn how to mount the phantom. Once they got the hang of it, it was "love" at first sight. HAHA :D
yeah like I said this was an older horse...he knew the drill...when he saw his breeding 'bridle' come out of the tack room that was usually all it took.

[slotdirt]

Warm bloods are mostly done by AI these days as well.

[GenuineRisk]

IMO it is all about $$ and jobs not the breed itself...it just sounds better to argue the breed aspects..

Excellent point-- when you come down to it, most things in life are about the $$.

(It's not like soundness seems to be a big concern in breeding these days, right?)

[Cajungator26]

Warm bloods are mostly done by AI these days as well.

Yep... they definitely are. Stud fees on warmbloods are what I'd consider "cheap" compared to thoroughbred stud fees. My sister interned at this place: http://www.highlifefarms.com/

They still have frozen semen available on a stallion that passed away a year or two ago (Highlife.) He was a nice horse, too...

[dr. fager]

It would have been very tough (if not nearly impossible) for them to obtain semen from Barbaro. It requires this...

http://www.equimount.com/how_to/step10.jpg

I worked on a Trahehner farm one summer, breeding stallions to one of those things, and let me tell you, it's just as tough on a stallion's hind legs. They get really into it. LOL :p


Thanks, this is great ammo if my son ever wants to become a male gymnast.....:p

In all seriousness, Mike Rowe did a piece on this on Dirty Jobs...dude cracks me up.

[Pedigree Ann]

All TB breeding countries would have to sign on to approving AI or USA-bred AI-produced TBs wouldn't be registerable as TBs overseas. The overseas market is quite lucrative for upper level Kentucky breeders, so I don't see them going this way any time soon.

The Russians bred some horses, even some local champions, from the frozen semen of their hero Anilin (won Germany's Preis von Europa three times, 2nd and 3rd [to Kelso and Gun Bow] in the Washington DC International in two tries). These horses couldn't race anywhere else in Europe because they weren't acceptable as TBs and none of their offspring could be either. Everybody has to accept AI or it's a no go.

[Antitrust32]

Found this article...

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_013007/content/animal_rights_update_3.guest.html


Cajun,

That was the funniest article ever. Thanks for posting it... i got a few good laughs.. especially the reverse dominatrix thing...

[Holland Hacker]

To me one the biggest issues would be how do you know you're getting what you actually pay for?


Also would there be any harvesting of eggs from talented fillies that were then fertizled and placed in anther mare?

[LARHAGE]

It would make it more affordable for breeders to mate to their preferred stallion. If you are in NY and there is a stallion in La...now you don't mate because of the travel...With AI you could.

I agree with this 100%. I have been using A.I. with my Arabians for years, and not everyone is flooding the airports for just the most popular stallions, of anything this allows a lot of different stallions to be utilized including overseas. How nice would it be to have had a lot of Saddlers Wells, Montjeu's etc... instead of a Storm Cat in every stall. The safety of stallion, mare and foal is also a HUGE advantage. I would never send my newborn foals on a van out od state to a strange farm, no way. I now have the luxury of my mare and her foal staying in the safety and comfort of their own home. The stallions don't have to be bred 3 times a day, one collection can service up to 10 mares. I have never understood the huge resistance from the Thoroughbred Breeders, unless they make a killing on mare care, especially with foals at their side. They always bring up how it ruined the Harness Horse Industry because they used the same stallion, when in reality, there isn't much to choose from to begin with. It's a no-brainer to me. I have enjoyed the luxury of breeding by choice, not location. :)

[LARHAGE]

It would have been very tough (if not nearly impossible) for them to obtain semen from Barbaro. It requires this...

http://www.equimount.com/how_to/step10.jpg

I worked on a Trahehner farm one summer, breeding stallions to one of those things, and let me tell you, it's just as tough on a stallion's hind legs. They get really into it. LOL :p

Stallions can actually be trained to allow manual collection while they are standing, it's done with older, arthritic stallions all the time. They don't have to mount.

[LARHAGE]

The stud fees would likely drop on all sires because the stud farms could make up in quanity what they'd lose in lowering the stud fees. I absolutely think there would be a glut of popular sires if it were permitted- suddenly, supply can absoultely meet demand.

But I agree that it's not likely to happen any time soon, if ever. Too much money in breeding as it is to change. I imagine SBs and QHs permit it because they're much smaller and the breeding industry doesn't call the shots in those industries? (purely a guess; I don't know much about either one)

Quarter Horses register more than a million horses a year over Thoroughbreds. Paints are second with substantially more than Thoroughbreds, I personally feel the old boy network wants the mare care fees, it's highway robbery to the mare owners.

[GenuineRisk]

Quarter Horses register more than a million horses a year over Thoroughbreds. Paints are second with substantially more than Thoroughbreds, I personally feel the old boy network wants the mare care fees, it's highway robbery to the mare owners.

As I said, I agree that it's about the money first and foremost. But are the one million more QHs you name all used for racing or are they used in other disciplines? Because you can breed a TB via AI, it just means you can't race with it, correct? I was referring specifically to the QH racing and SB racing industries (though, as I said, I don't know much about either). Sorry if that was unclear.

[Cajungator26]

Stallions can actually be trained to allow manual collection while they are standing, it's done with older, arthritic stallions all the time. They don't have to mount.

Tough to train a horse that was in Barbaro's situation... wouldn't you agree?

[sumitas]

I agree with this 100%. I have been using A.I. with my Arabians for years, and not everyone is flooding the airports for just the most popular stallions, of anything this allows a lot of different stallions to be utilized including overseas. How nice would it be to have had a lot of Saddlers Wells, Montjeu's etc... instead of a Storm Cat in every stall. The safety of stallion, mare and foal is also a HUGE advantage. I would never send my newborn foals on a van out od state to a strange farm, no way. I now have the luxury of my mare and her foal staying in the safety and comfort of their own home. The stallions don't have to be bred 3 times a day, one collection can service up to 10 mares. I have never understood the huge resistance from the Thoroughbred Breeders, unless they make a killing on mare care, especially with foals at their side. They always bring up how it ruined the Harness Horse Industry because they used the same stallion, when in reality, there isn't much to choose from to begin with. It's a no-brainer to me. I have enjoyed the luxury of breeding by choice, not location. :)

Great observation. And many would desire a sturdy stallion from Germany as well. As an aside, that's one of the great attributes of Raffie's Majesty. His broodmare sire is the great German Surumu and with the right mare he's a helluva mating as you can see by his progeny.

[Cannon Shell]

The biggest problem in the thoroughbred breed is that too few horses are being culled from the herd. I'm sure a few of you will flame me for saying this but if you cant afford to ship your mare to the stallion that you want to breed to then you probably do not have enough money to be breeding quality horses. AI has hurt the standardbred business for all but a select few breeders. It has virtually eliminated the sport in the state of KY. The vast majority of quarter horses are not bred for racing and they are a mutt breed, not a pure breed.

[Cajungator26]

The biggest problem in the thoroughbred breed is that too few horses are being culled from the herd. I'm sure a few of you will flame me for saying this but if you cant afford to ship your mare to the stallion that you want to breed to then you probably do not have enough money to be breeding quality horses. AI has hurt the standardbred business for all but a select few breeders. It has virtually eliminated the sport in the state of KY. The vast majority of quarter horses are not bred for racing and they are a mutt breed, not a pure breed.

Quarter horses stem from thoroughbreds... LOL

[Cannon Shell]

Quarter horses stem from thoroughbreds... LOL
As well as other breeds which is not a pure breed. I'm not putting them down, I have 2 great QH ponies, but you cant compare QH breeding and TB breeding.

[MISTERGEE]

I Saw The Same Story On Msnbc Where The Interviewed Said That He Was Sure Barbaros Semen Was Frozen Somewhere. Let Me Just Say, And Those Of You Who Saw This Piece On Msnbc Will I Am Sure Concur Both The Interviewer And The Interviewed Were At The Worst Idiots And At Best Knew Absolutely Nothing About Horse Racing Or Horses.

[slotdirt]

I would just like to state it cannot be easy typing Where One Uses Caps In The First Letter Of Every Word One Types.

[Cajungator26]

I would just like to state it cannot be easy typing Where One Uses Caps In The First Letter Of Every Word One Types.

LMAO... too true. :D

It makes my head spin. :eek:

[Antitrust32]

I would just like to state it cannot be easy typing Where One Uses Caps In The First Letter Of Every Word One Types.


Actually, I think the poster is writing his whole posts in caps and the derby trail just makes every first letter in caps let me try - I am typing the next phrase in all caps

BARBARO WAS A TRUE GLADIATOR

[Antitrust32]

guess i was wrong..

[LARHAGE]

The biggest problem in the thoroughbred breed is that too few horses are being culled from the herd. I'm sure a few of you will flame me for saying this but if you cant afford to ship your mare to the stallion that you want to breed to then you probably do not have enough money to be breeding quality horses. AI has hurt the standardbred business for all but a select few breeders. It has virtually eliminated the sport in the state of KY. The vast majority of quarter horses are not bred for racing and they are a mutt breed, not a pure breed.

It isn't about the money, you'd still be paying for the advertised stud fee, and in actuality it isn't cheap to have your mare impregnated at home by the Vet. It requires stringent record keeping and Vet visits. The advantage is simply the health and welfare of the mare and foal is the first priority, and you can choose a stallion from another Country if you desire. If I could afford the stud fee by A.I., I could afford it by shipping. I simply don't want my newborn foals stressed out at that young age with a van ride and stabling in a new atmosphere. It's just ripe for sickness.

I also don't agree with your assessment of Quarter Horses, while I don't own any, the fact is they are a pure breed, same as a Thoroughbred. They both needed my Arabians blood to be created. :D

[GenuineRisk]

guess i was wrong..

Maybe it just lets you have a limited number of words in caps. I'm going to try:

MY GRANDFATHER WOULD NEVER BET ON A GRAY HORSE. I WOULD LOVE TO SOMEDAY OWN A GRAY HORSE AND NAME IT AFTER HIM. I MYSELF LIKE GRAY HORSES, BUT NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE IT A BETTING ANGLE. BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE STUPID AND I HAVE ENOUGH TROUBLE HANDICAPPING AS IT IS.

BARBARO WAS NOT A GRAY. AND I DIDN'T BET ON HIM IN THE DERBY. BECAUSE I'M STUPID.

[GenuineRisk]

Huh. Okay Then. Now I Feel REALLY Stupid.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

It isn't about the money, you'd still be paying for the advertised stud fee, and in actuality it isn't cheap to have your mare impregnated at home by the Vet. It requires stringent record keeping and Vet visits. The advantage is simply the health and welfare of the mare and foal is the first priority, and you can choose a stallion from another Country if you desire. If I could afford the stud fee by A.I., I could afford it by shipping. I simply don't want my newborn foals stressed out at that young age with a van ride and stabling in a new atmosphere. It's just ripe for sickness.

I also don't agree with your assessment of Quarter Horses, while I don't own any, the fact is they are a pure breed, same as a Thoroughbred. They both needed my Arabians blood to be created. :D

The stud fees would drop like a rock! And don't fool yourself the breeding game is all about the money.

[lemondropkid1]

I Saw The Same Story On Msnbc Where The Interviewed Said That He Was Sure Barbaros Semen Was Frozen Somewhere. Let Me Just Say, And Those Of You Who Saw This Piece On Msnbc Will I Am Sure Concur Both The Interviewer And The Interviewed Were At The Worst Idiots And At Best Knew Absolutely Nothing About Horse Racing Or Horses.

Oh I agree 100%. It had to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard, especially considering that one of them is supposed to be the horse racing correspondant and therefore one would assume he would know something about the industry. I just found the whole topic very interesting, a typical "What if" scenario. I'm sure it will never happen for many of the reasons posted here.

And if you thought those guys were idiots, the article on cloning was even worse.

[paisjpq]

The biggest problem in the thoroughbred breed is that too few horses are being culled from the herd. I'm sure a few of you will flame me for saying this but if you cant afford to ship your mare to the stallion that you want to breed to then you probably do not have enough money to be breeding quality horses. AI has hurt the standardbred business for all but a select few breeders. It has virtually eliminated the sport in the state of KY. The vast majority of quarter horses are not bred for racing and they are a mutt breed, not a pure breed.

I couldn't agree more ...
even the 'responsible' breeders are guilty of breeding fillies that should just go away and be a child's hunter or something...

an example...
a well bred filly turns up with a HORRIBLE throat at the yearling sale...the owners knew on the farm that her throat was bad and that she was a 'roarer' when she exercised but they took their chances @ auction...
her mother was a really good runner who has not thrown more than a maiden winner in 10 or so foals...her daddy was a first crop stud (who has gotten some big runners this season)...
as expected, that filly RNA'd...and knowing that she wasn't going to be able to breathe they decided not to try to train he for racing...
so what did they do? Well, she's due to foal in april...she will be 3 yrs and 1 month old when she becomes a mommy....

she should have been culled....

[Cannon Shell]

I also don't agree with your assessment of Quarter Horses, while I don't own any, the fact is they are a pure breed, same as a Thoroughbred. They both needed my Arabians blood to be created. :D
Quarter horses can be as much as 15/16ths Thoroughbred and still be considered QH's. Not pure anymore.

[Cannon Shell]

I couldn't agree more ...
even the 'responsible' breeders are guilty of breeding fillies that should just go away and be a child's hunter or something...

an example...
a well bred filly turns up with a HORRIBLE throat at the yearling sale...the owners knew on the farm that her throat was bad and that she was a 'roarer' when she exercised but they took their chances @ auction...
her mother was a really good runner who has not thrown more than a maiden winner in 10 or so foals...her daddy was a first crop stud (who has gotten some big runners this season)...
as expected, that filly RNA'd...and knowing that she wasn't going to be able to breathe they decided not to try to train he for racing...
so what did they do? Well, she's due to foal in april...she will be 3 yrs and 1 month old when she becomes a mommy....

she should have been culled....
And if you think that is bad then what about the same type filly that is NOT well bred that is in the same situation. Those kind keep getting bred too.

[Danzig]

also with ai, pretty hard to prove without dna testing that you got what you paid for. huge opportunties for abuse of the system. every live cover is videoed..
needs to stay the way it is.

[paisjpq]

And if you think that is bad then what about the same type filly that is NOT well bred that is in the same situation. Those kind keep getting bred too.
Oh I know...I was just giving the first filly example that popped in my head...it's bad either way.

[Cajungator26]

Quarter horses can be as much as 15/16ths Thoroughbred and still be considered QH's. Not pure anymore.

Yes, but I believe at that point, they're called Appendix QH's. I used to own one... best horse I've ever been around (although he had small hooves, UGH.)

[Cannon Shell]

Yes, but I believe at that point, they're called Appendix QH's. I used to own one... best horse I've ever been around (although he had small hooves, UGH.)
They can still race and are registered with the AQHA.
Both my QH's have poor feet.

[Cajungator26]

They can still race and are registered with the AQHA.
Both my QH's have poor feet.

That's correct, but aren't they registered with the AQHA as "Appendix QH's?" Poor feet seem to run in the QH breed. Way too small for their bodies...

[Danzig]

alydar was a popular sire with appendix qh folks. i've thought about trying to get involved in qh racing--seems it might be a bit easier on the wallet--but i'm just not interested in 'drag racing'.

[Cajungator26]

alydar was a popular sire with appendix qh folks. i've thought about trying to get involved in qh racing--seems it might be a bit easier on the wallet--but i'm just not interested in 'drag racing'.

My appendix was so fast, it was scary... my sister's thoroughbred couldn't keep up for about a half mile, but after that, watch out boys. LOL

[Danzig]

amazing speed. and have the stamina to run all day--just not run FAST all day...

amazing when you consider that qh's are the #1 registry by far--and with foal crops the size they are with t'breds, it boggles the mind how many qh's there must be.