kev-English channel

[skippy3481]

I just go ahead and start this thread now so when the 8 rolls home first, we already have a forum to pat ourselves on the back.

[GPK]

I just go ahead and start this thread now so when the 8 rolls home first, we already have a forum to pat ourselves on the back.


LOL....i swear to you, I just got done doing some calligraphy work for a tournament that we are having here and told myself I needed to get on here and start a thread about him and wishing everyone good luck today while I have time.

I am a bit concerned about Pletcher thinking I may start to stalk English Channel...lol

[skippy3481]

Horse will absolutely explode today. Coming off the turn its jets on and no catches today.

[GPK]

Horse will absolutely explode today. Coming off the turn its jets on and no catches today.


Love the way your thinking. Just curious as to what Cacique's excuse will be this time. I do think EC is sitting on a huge effort today as well. One thing about him though, even if he loses, he will be running his heart out. Absolutely in love with this little guys heart and desire. I have said it before, you can almost see it on his face how much he loves running and winning. Just really pissed I won't be able to see the race. The only horse racing site I have access to does not show Belmont.:(

[GPK]

I just saw they are showing the undercard on ESPN.....someone PLEASE tell me that includes The Manhattan.

[skippy3481]

The first stakes races are on espn until 5 then the manhattan and the belmont are on nbc or abc or whatever. Ec- should roll because there is no pace in the race. He gets to throw what he wants to out. I really see him about 2nd on the rail and half mile in something slow like 49 flat. Then turning for home its over. Who knows about cicques excuse will be. I think hell hit the board but his non-pace run should kill his win shot.

[Gander]

Cacique has a dog that always eats his homework. You may as well start the thread now ostricizing Edgar Prado for messing this one up.

[oracle80]

Cacique has a dog that always eats his homework. You may as well start the thread now ostricizing Edgar Prado for messing this one up.


LOL!! You may as well start another thread where everyone praises Cacique as the best turf horse in the USA. His excuses were extremely valid ones and not at all symbolic of a horse who hangs. 10 wide with trouble in his debut here, and then hemmed in behind a dawdling pace last out.
If you compute Cacique's last 1/8th of a mile in the last race, you will be stunned to find that he flew home in 11 FLAT!!! Now, I ask anyone out there to find a horse someplace at any track or any distance that ran a last 1/8th in 11 flat that you guys can recall. Personally, I can't remember the last time that happened. Big difference between "he didn't like the going, he moved too soon, or moved too late" and was caught 10 wide on a tight turned turf course and was blocked the whole trip behind moderate fractions and flew home in 11 flat. Trust me, he rolls today. Bet early, and often on this horse, hes the best bet of the day.

[oracle80]

And if any of you guys can find me a turf horse somewhere who is capable of getting the last 1/8th of a mile in 11 flat at a good price, lemme know ASAP!!! I know a lot of trainers and owners who would be DYING to buy a horse who can roll like that. No traffic today, just flat out destruction.

[PSH]

Wow.

Oracle 80 you had me at best turf horse.
Guess being from Europe the yielding course should be to his liking.
Loading up at 2-1 to 5-2.
Don't mess around with this type - WIN BET
Go Cacique....Prado on him doesn't hurt does it???

Think the pace in the Woody Stephens favors Likely at a price???

Does Gorella go off at odds on???
Looks like singles in the 7th and 10th and a spread in the 8th and 9th as part of the Pick 6...

Good Luck,

PSH

[Danzig]

lol
hell no prado being on him doesn't hurt.

[oracle80]

Wow.

Oracle 80 you had me at best turf horse.
Guess being from Europe the yielding course should be to his liking.
Loading up at 2-1 to 5-2.
Don't mess around with this type - WIN BET
Go Cacique....Prado on him doesn't hurt does it???

Think the pace in the Woody Stephens favors Likely at a price???

Does Gorella go off at odds on???
Looks like singles in the 7th and 10th and a spread in the 8th and 9th as part of the Pick 6...

Good Luck,

PSH

PSH, I personally am the charter member of the I hate horses who hang or have constant excuses club. But I'm wondering those bashing him actually watched his races, or ever watch races at all other than if they bet a race.

Most Euros will not show speed from the gate no matter how well they are training in their US debuts. In Europe horses are basically allowed to walk out of the gate and are never hustled or asked for speed(See Gorella's pp's earlier in the card as an example). Cacique was no exception to this rule. Breaking slowly and showing no speed he was taken 10 wide on the tight turned SA turf course and still came rolling home like a runaway freight train.
In his last Prado schooled Pval and locked him up and threw away the key. On the blimp shot(by the way it has to be the greatest innovation ever, in watching a blimp shot you REALLY get to see a trip) Pval starts trying to lean out and get out a half mile into the race and you can see Edgar saying no way man, you are screwed. Pace was dawdling and he was locked up tight. WHile hes locked in EC clears the horses in front and spurts away witha full head of steam and momentum while Pval is still trying to get out of the jail sentence that prado imposed on him. Gets taken 5 wide, and flies home the last 1/8th in 11 FLAT!!! This isn't a horse with push button exceleration, this is a horse who starts to roll and will give you a 1/4 mile run that will crush others. No excuses today, he will just roll and take dead aim.

[oracle80]

lol
hell no prado being on him doesn't hurt.


LOL!! Look at it this way, it was Prado who locked him in last time on Good Reward and cost him the race. I'm sure that Edgar was impressed as hell that he flew home like he did last time. Edgar above all people knows what kind of trip that cacique got last time, he caused it. Edgar will do just fine.

[zippyneedsawin]

PSH, I personally am the charter member of the I hate horses who hang or have constant excuses club. But I'm wondering those bashing him actually watched his races, or ever watch races at all other than if they bet a race.

Most Euros will not show speed from the gate no matter how well they are training in their US debuts. In Europe horses are basically allowed to walk out of the gate and are never hustled or asked for speed(See Gorella's pp's earlier in the card as an example). Cacique was no exception to this rule. Breaking slowly and showing no speed he was taken 10 wide on the tight turned SA turf course and still came rolling home like a runaway freight train.
In his last Prado schooled Pval and locked him up and threw away the key. On the blimp shot(by the way it has to be the greatest innovation ever, in watching a blimp shot you REALLY get to see a trip) Pval starts trying to lean out and get out a half mile into the race and you can see Edgar saying no way man, you are screwed. Pace was dawdling and he was locked up tight. WHile hes locked in EC clears the horses in front and spurts away witha full head of steam and momentum while Pval is still trying to get out of the jail sentence that prado imposed on him. Gets taken 5 wide, and flies home the last 1/8th in 11 FLAT!!! This isn't a horse with push button exceleration, this is a horse who starts to roll and will give you a 1/4 mile run that will crush others. No excuses today, he will just roll and take dead aim.



I've been waiting for Cacique's return here at Belmont. I'm building a huge Pick 4 around him.. I just hope I don't miss on the other legs.

[Scurlogue Champ]

I'm still taking Grey Swallow here.

Although the arguments for Cacique are compelling.

[Gander]

The whole world knows what kind of trip Cacique had last time. Its not privy info. Not bashin the horse at all, just dont think a good trip necessarily equals a win. Especially in a completely paceless race with Relaxed Gesture and Grey Swallow, 2 horses he hasnt met yet.

Do I think he can win? Sure.
Do I think he can get a better trip? Sure.
Do I think he would have won his last w/o trouble? Sure.

But I think hes going to be a lot shorter than the price people are thinking. I believe he'll go favored at about 8/5 and worth trying to beat, in a race without a tiring target.

Good luck. If I go deep in picks, he will be on my ticket.

[Blue Eyes]

[QUOTE=GPK]Love the way your thinking. Just curious as to what Cacique's excuse will be this time. QUOTE]

***NONE***

:cool:


His excuse is that you didn't show up to hotwalk him this morning because you were too drunk.

[oracle80]

Cacique has a dog that always eats his homework. You may as well start the thread now ostricizing Edgar Prado for messing this one up.

I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oracle80]

And now people who wanted to talk about eating homework and how he had no valid excuse last time wanna explain to me that EC needs "a target"? How very embarassing for them. Next case please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GPK]

And now people who wanted to talk about eating homework and how he had no valid excuse last time wanna explain to me that EC needs "a target"? How very embarassing for them. Next case please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Far from embarrasing. EC did nothing whatsoever to embarass him or his supporters yesterday.

[oracle80]

Far from embarrasing. EC did nothing whatsoever to embarass him or his supporters yesterday.


Except to run off the board with a no excuse trip.

[oracle80]

Look at it this way Kev, now you know he just isnt good enough. he had a clear trip and just couldn't get it done. Its much harder when you back a horse like cacique in the Wooford Reserve, watch the best horse get destoryed by a trip, and then have to listen to folks who watch races about as well as I play golf(not real good) explain to you that you didnt have the best horse, blah blah blah. AT least you have the piece of mind now to just know hes not good enough. :)

[oracle80]

That will conclude by lashing of those who questioned caciques trip in Kentucky. :D

[GPK]

Except to run off the board with a no excuse trip.

The three finishers in front of him were bred where Mike? Ireland, correct? Thats all they breed over there is fantastic grass runners. No shame whatsoever in his race yesterday.

[GPK]

Last time I checked, EC is a Grade 1 winner....am I correct?

[Gander]

I thought it was a great effort from all 4 horses who ran 1-2-3-4.

What was the margin between Cacique and EC? 1 length?

Nice ride by Prado and nice race from all. Not sure how you can bash any of these 4 horses. EVen Grey Swalow ran well and I heard a lot of bashing on how he was so slow and beat nothings last time. Pretty good representation of himself yesterday.

[oracle80]

Actually Kev I knew Cacique was homefree when Marmino said he loved Grey Swallow!!!!!! LOL!!!! Mopes.

[oracle80]

I thought it was a great effort from all 4 horses who ran 1-2-3-4.

What was the margin between Cacique and EC? 1 length?

Nice ride by Prado and nice race from all. Not sure how you can bash any of these 4 horses. EVen Grey Swalow ran well and I heard a lot of bashing on how he was so slow and beat nothings last time. Pretty good representation of himself yesterday.


He lost, I told everyone to single cacique, received many emails this morning and last night thankiing me for persuading them to single Cacique and that they hit the pik-4 because of it. Game over, try again next time. Oh and go try and cash that win ticket on Grey swallow and see how much you get back. You guys ever know when to just say you were right? and move on?.
Done with this, its obvious who looks smart and who looks dumb.

[GPK]

Look at it this way Kev, now you know he just isnt good enough. he had a clear trip and just couldn't get it done. Its much harder when you back a horse like cacique in the Wooford Reserve, watch the best horse get destoryed by a trip, and then have to listen to folks who watch races about as well as I play golf(not real good) explain to you that you didnt have the best horse, blah blah blah. AT least you have the piece of mind now to just know hes not good enough. :)


Just isnt good enough???

4years old...Grade 1 winner...over $1.5 million in earnings thus far. 7 wins from 12 starts.

Your right Mike...you would give your right nut AND left nut to be the purchasing agent for a horse like EC that isnt "good enough"

[oracle80]

Just isnt good enough???

4years old...Grade 1 winner...over $1.5 million in earnings thus far. 7 wins from 12 starts.

Your right Mike...you would give your right nut AND left nut to be the purchasing agent for a horse like EC that isnt "good enough"

Hes one of the top three grass horses in the Us, probably number two. But hes not as good as cacique is. He is not. The margin may be narrow, but cacique is a better horse.

[Gander]

Mike your always right. This never gets any different. Must be nice being you. Mormino is an idiot and should stick to his restaurant gig. Done.

[oracle80]

Mike your always right. This never gets any different. Must be nice being you. Mormino is an idiot and should stick to his restaurant gig. Done.


Oh come on Tim, you only got included here because you made the dog ate his homework crack. Geez at least when I am wrong I stand in and take the abuse. You guys make this no fun, shoot, you can't even try and get a rise out of someone anymore without breaking out the theatrics, geez.

[GPK]

He lost, I told everyone to single cacique, received many emails this morning and last night thankiing me for persuading them to single Cacique and that they hit the pik-4 because of it. Game over, try again next time. Oh and go try and cash that win ticket on Grey swallow and see how much you get back. You guys ever know when to just say you were right? and move on?.
Done with this, its obvious who looks smart and who looks dumb.


Its obvious who looks like and arrongant *******, thats for sure. If you check every post about EC in here since the race yesterday, I have done nothing but give Cacique his due and admitted that EC was beaten by a better horse yesterday. At least when I make a pick and it loses I am man enough to admit I was wrong and not blame it on a jockey or some other crap. EC was a beaten horse yesterday. I dont think that he ran his best race by anymeans, he look very rank early on and didn't want to settle. I think he spent some valuable energy in that.

[oracle80]

Its obvious who looks like and arrongant *******, thats for sure. If you check every post about EC in here since the race yesterday, I have done nothing but give Cacique his due and admitted that EC wasnt beaten by a better horse yesterday. At least when I make a pick and it loses I am man enough to admit I was wrong and not blame it on a jockey or some other crap. EC was a beaten horse yesterday. I dont think that he ran his best race by anymeans, he look very rank early on and didn't want to settle. I think he spent some valuable energy in that.


Blah blah blah, Look Kev, you gave it to a few of us pretty good for 5 weeks after EC beat cacique. Geez, you remember the way you busted out stones? Superior horse and all that? man, thats not like you, If you are gonna give out abuse over soemthing for 5 weeks you have to expect a little back. And spare me the accusations both of you, I know you both well, and you can damn well bet that the two of you , BOTH OF YOU!!!! would have been teh first guys on here mocking everyone. Tim woulda beenthe first guy here with remarks like dog ate his homework again, and Kev, you WOULD HAVE TORTURED US!!!!! And neither one of you can look me or anyone else in the damn eye and tell me I'm wrong. Incredible, the two of you gonna tell me you would have handled a cacique loss or EC win gracefully? Gimme a break, and stop the victim act.

[GPK]

Mike, Im not playing the victim act. EC lost and I admitted he lost to a better horse yesterday. You are acting like I am in denial....I HAVE ADMITTED HE LOST. I dont even hate Cacique, he is a WONDERFUL horse that I do like being that he is a half to one of my favorite turf mares INTERCONTINENTAL.

The fact is that EC and Cacique have faced each other 2 times, with each one winning once. How do you prove who is the better horse?

[oracle80]

Mike, Im not playing the victim act. EC lost and I admitted he lost to a better horse yesterday. You are acting like I am in denial....I HAVE ADMITTED HE LOST. I dont even hate Cacique, he is a WONDERFUL horse that I do like being that he is a half to one of my favorite turf mares INTERCONTINENTAL.

The fact is that EC and Cacique have faced each other 2 times, with each one winning once. How do you prove who is the better horse?


Valid point Kev. Perhaps the rematch expected will give us some clarity rather than just opinions.
You know I LOVE EC as well. I always have. And I think they are 1-2 in the US as grass horses. But this BS that I am a bully when I bust someones stones when I am right, and when anyone else doesnt they aren't is ridiculous.
I mean look, Tim was making fun of the horse BEFORE they even ran yesterday with the homework thing. And you were all over us (at the other board) for weeks. Thats low, double standard here.
And you may note that I watch races Kev, I just made an excuse on another thread for a horse yesterday that I wanted to lose. I call em like I see em, and Gomez got schooled again yesterday, this time to my advantage. So I really dont wanna hear any of that bullshit either. I call bad rides whether I have the horse or not when I see bad rides.

[GPK]

Valid point Kev. Perhaps the rematch expected will give us some clarity rather than just opinions.
You know I LOVE EC as well. I always have. And I think they are 1-2 in the US as grass horses. But this BS that I am a bully when I bust someones stones when I am right, and when anyone else doesnt they aren't is ridiculous.
I mean look, Tim was making fun of the horse BEFORE they even ran yesterday with the homework thing. And you were all over us (at the other board) for weeks. Thats low, double standard here.
And you may note that I watch races Kev, I just made an excuse on another thread for a horse yesterday that I wanted to lose. I call em like I see em, and Gomez got schooled again yesterday, this time to my advantage. So I really dont wanna hear any of that bullshit either. I call bad rides whether I have the horse or not when I see bad rides.


You have to admit then that EC unwillingness to settle early on for JV cost him energy for the stretch run home...surely you can admit that?

[Gander]

Mike, I would not have been mocking you had Relaxed Gesture or Grey Swallow won this race. I would suspect you had a lot more riding on Cacique winning than I did with the other 2 (GS or RG). In fact I used Cacique in my pick 4's and was live into the Belmont but didnt use Jazil on any tickets. You are wrong when you say I would have mocked you. Yes I have in the past but I knew this was your big single yesterday and I dont hit below the belt. You know better than that. I was prepared to make a big win bet on Relaxed Gesture but didnt really love the 4/1 odds.

[Gander]

I didnt use English Channel on any of my tickets and have no love for this horse. He absolutely killed me on Derby Day, killed me by beating Cacique. I will applaud his effort, perfect trip or not. He got beat what, a head, a nose by 3 very good horses.

[brockguy]

i was surprised cacique was sent off at only 2.2-1 but as the old saying goes, better to have a low price winner than a long price loser. I backed Relaxed Gesture with the ground in his favour, but looking again, he could probably have done with another furlong and a half. There is no denying that cacique is a talented horse but things never seemed to fall his way before now in a top race.

[oracle80]

Kev,
look, you aren't able to put aside emotion yet and talk without emotion isn analyzing races.
I mean, cacique's trip in the Woodford was quite bad, and yet you went on record as saying you didnt see anything and the trip was ok.
Now, you want to argue about a little rankness and "energy loss"?
Step back and think about this.
Two great horses and I am looking forward to a rematch.

[PSH]

Was really impressed and happy with the result. Thanks Oracle 80. Did bet early and often...
Liked the camera shots in the backstretch and coming around the turn.

Thought Prado did a great job conserving enough energy to win be a nose....

Difference might have been the jockey....

Lava Man continues to impress out here on the turf in the last two starts.
Monster efforts but not sure how that translates against the best in yesterday's races....

PSH

[oracle80]

Was really impressed and happy with the result. Thanks Oracle 80. Did bet early and often...
Liked the camera shots in the backstretch and coming around the turn.

Thought Prado did a great job conserving enough energy to win be a nose....

Difference might have been the jockey....

Lava Man continues to impress out here on the turf in the last two starts.
Monster efforts but not sure how that translates against the best in yesterday's races....

PSH


Ok now that the ball busting is over with I will give you my real take on the race.
Neither cacique or English Channel is at their best on the lead. I didn't feel that the grass favored speed yesterday. I was shocked and stunned when Pommes Frites actually got caught loping so loose and slow earlier in the day(different course, but still). Neither Johnny nor Edgar wanted the lead, and with good reason. I think that EC was set for a bounce off that lifetime top last time and that alone made the difference down the stretch. Gesture as i said many times does not really want to run by anybody in a dogfight. Race really settled nothing in terms of which one of those 4 is "best" overall as a horse. A race run under freakish soft and slow fractions as a conditioon will usually not prove anything. This one can be filed under that label. I think cacique was the most fit horse yesterday(EC was fit but set for a bounce off his lifetime top) as Gesture hadn't run in a long time, Swallow had only had one race against inferior horses that didn't tighten him enough, and EC was set to regress. Plain and simple, it was just Caciques day. But I spoke of those premises on all three of the others BEFORE the race, not after.
Race proved nothing yesterday in terms of which one of these four is actually the best. Ok? Thats an unbiased view of what i really feel without the ball busting.

[GPK]

Kev,
look, you aren't able to put aside emotion yet and talk without emotion isn analyzing races.
I mean, cacique's trip in the Woodford was quite bad, and yet you went on record as saying you didnt see anything and the trip was ok.
Now, you want to argue about a little rankness and "energy loss"?
Step back and think about this.
Two great horses and I am looking forward to a rematch.

Mike....I HAVE ADMITTED HE LOST TO A BETTER HORSE YESTERDAY!!!! FOR THE 5TH ****ING TIME....how is that not putting aside emotion. That is the definition of putting aside emotion.

You, of all people, have talked about how a horse expends energy when rank like that and wanting to run, but yet the jock is trying to rate him.

[oracle80]

Mike....I HAVE ADMITTED HE LOST TO A BETTER HORSE YESTERDAY!!!! FOR THE 5TH ****ING TIME....how is that not putting aside emotion. That is the definition of putting aside emotion.

You, of all people, have talked about how a horse expends energy when rank like that and wanting to run, but yet the jock is trying to rate him.
Sigh, read my latest reply Kev. You really have to learn when I am ball busting. MAn, do you even ralize how badly you tortured us after the last race? And you kept it up for weeks!!! I'm already done, you got a light sentence.

[GPK]

Sigh, read my latest reply Kev. You really have to learn when I am ball busting. MAn, do you even ralize how badly you tortured us after the last race? And you kept it up for weeks!!! I'm already done, you got a light sentence.

I did not see your latest reply before I made mine.

[belmont park is the best]

Why are you all talking about English channel, he had a perfect trip no excuses at all. Still a nice horse and capable of some amazing preformances. Cacique did have a horrible ride from Pval in the churchill race and has found a rider in prado to help him. But the horse you should all be focusing on is clement's lawnmower Relazed Gesture. NOBODY ELSE SAW THAT KENT THE GREAT LOST HIS STICK A FEW STRIDES AFTER THE 1/8TH POLE???? This horse has been plagued with idiot rides before and can get it done. If you look at his campaign last year, lost the Bowling green from a pitiful brice blanc ride. Than the sword dancer santos was dumb enough to let chavez steal it. He won the canadian international for fun against some tough horses. Dubai was a horrid showing but he has prooved he is going to rebound and have a good campaign if guys can ride him to their actual abilities. IMO he needs a more agressive jockey and he can be in the top 3 of turf horses this year.