8/7 (DMR): Clement L. Hirsch S. (G1)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Rachel Alexandra isn't pissing all over anybody this year---the same way Arcaro rode Native Dancer exactly " zero times " .

NOT. WRONG. NYET.

Zenyatta unfortunately will not be NY bound, but if she is sound she will be at the BCC and she will be ready .

May I take the liberty of revisting your prediction post race ??

Thanking you in advance, dolt ...


Go ahead sweetie.

Zenyatta won't even beat Blame - and I doubt Blame does any better than 3rd.

[prudery]

Go ahead sweetie.

Zenyatta won't even beat Blame - and I doubt Blame does any better than 3rd.

Fine so--we'll talk post race ...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Fine so--we'll talk post race ...

If Shirreffs has her as short for that race as he's had all year long - she wouldn't get a single call in the race.


...


Oh wait, Trevor will be calling the race! Scrap that one.


And now lets see! Zennnyattta is still 12 lengths back at the 1/8th pole .. she'd really, really, really have to be a super horse to win from there!.. but, take a look, Zenyatta hooks to the grandstand side and is passing tiring horses that actually tried to win the race! This is un-be-leave-able! Zenyatta's 8th with 50 to go, can she inhale two more runners? Why yes! ZENYATTA, ZENYATTA's going to be 6th as she crosses the wire! Not sure about the exact order of the top five finishers - a photo should determine that.

[RockHardTen1985]

Whats the bet right now that she runs 1-2-3 in the Classic?

[Dahoss]

this forum has been the place to be.

Do you have a choice?

[prudery]

If Shirreffs has her as short for that race as he's had all year long - she wouldn't get a single call in the race.


...


Oh wait, Trevor will be calling the race! Scrap that one.

You will feel better after the Metamucil kicks in ...

And she will NOT be short ...

[RockHardTen1985]

Do you have a choice?

There is PA and your big contest #2.....

[The Indomitable DrugS]

You will feel better after the Metamucil kicks in ...

And she will NOT be short ...

I'm heartbroken she's not in the Distaff. A race where I could actually try to make a score by having her off of the board.

[DaTruth]

Go ahead sweetie.

Zenyatta won't even beat Blame - and I doubt Blame does any better than 3rd.

As of this moment, Blame and Lookin at Lucky have to be the frontrunners for Horse of the Year.

[RockHardTen1985]

As of this moment, Blame and Lookin at Lucky have to be the frontrunners for Horse of the Year.


Ugh...NO....


1. Blame
2. Quality Road "he is a Woodward away from being #1 again"
3. Zenyatta "Assuming she stays undefeated, then the Classic decides it"
4. L@L "took over the 3yr old division, but he has a lot to prove, he will have to beat olders at some point"

[hockey2315]

Ugh...NO....


1. Blame
2. Quality Road "he is a Woodward away from being #1 again"
3. Zenyatta "Assuming she stays undefeated, then the Classic decides it"
4. L@L "took over the 3yr old division, but he has a lot to prove, he will have to beat olders at some point"

I've kept quiet about this for too long. You don't know how to use quotation marks and it drives me insane.

[RockHardTen1985]

I've kept quiet about this for too long. You don't know how to use quotation marks and it drives me insane.

LOL...
Thanks.

[DaTruth]

Ugh...NO....


1. Blame
2. Quality Road "he is a Woodward away from being #1 again"
3. Zenyatta "Assuming she stays undefeated, then the Classic decides it"
4. L@L "took over the 3yr old division, but he has a lot to prove, he will have to beat olders at some point"

If Blame wins the Jockey Club Gold Cup, and hits the board in the Classic, he wins HOY unless LAL wins the Classic. If Blame wins the JCGC, stubs his toe in the Classic, and wins the Clark or Cigar Mile, he probably wins it.

Quality Road will have to win the Woodward, Dirt Mile, and maybe the Cigar Mile to win HOY.

[Merlinsky]

I've kept quiet about this for too long. You don't know how to use quotation marks and it drives me insane.

:):tro:

I was about to post the following until I realized a lot of posts had happened since I started catching up on this thread:

I cant and wont discuss it right now.

Will you discuss the use of apostrophes? They are (they're) your friend. Examples of proper usage: 1) Zenyatta's awesome. 2) So's Rachel Alexandra. 3) Jess Jackson's not known for making sense. 4) ATR's coverage of horse racing is far superior to anything I've seen of TVG.

:p

[Rupert Pupkin]

Seems quite clear that they were very afraid of losing something else that they very much thought they deserved no matter what, and that's exactly WHY they ran her in the Classic at the last second.

It was not at the last second, not even close. If my memory is right, I think they announced it about a month before the race.

[Dahoss]

It was not at the last second, not even close. If my memory is right, I think they announced it about a month before the race.

Your memory isn't right.

[Rupert Pupkin]

That really isnt true. Who exactly was the big horse everyone was touting?
The truth is that the people who knock her were right last year and are still right. These arent great races. These arent good races. She is beating crap and looking very ordinary doing it. Spin it how ever you'd like but she is really just a nice horse with quirky habits, a strong closing kick and a cupcake schedule.

Unless you just WANT her to be more than she is. Then you can say she is better than Affirmed or rank her 12 all time or whatever blasphemy you want to go with.

And you want to know why people arent flocking to see RA and Z? Because most everyone outside of 7 year old girls and retards are tired of watching glorified exibition races.

It wasn't that there was a superstar that everyone was touting in the BC Classic last year. It was that most of you figured that if Zenyatta was struggling to beat mediocre females, then she would not be able to beat fairly solid males. That was the thinking on most of your parts and that thinking turned out to be wrong.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Not mine.

Rupert - don't be on the wrong side of history - open your heart and fill it with hate for Zenyatta.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I'm heartbroken she's not in the Distaff. A race where I could actually try to make a score by having her off of the board.

Just a month ago, you claimed it was much more likely that Z would run in the Distaff. You changed your mind?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Your memory isn't right.

Refresh my memory. When was it announced that she would run in the Classic?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Just a month ago, you claimed it was much more likely that Z would run in the Distaff. You changed your mind?

After watching the Whitney, Haskell, and Jim Dandy ... yes.

Nothing has yet emerged to scare the connections into thinking they can't win it ... and she has a better chance of finishing in front of RA in the Classic than any other race.

Running in it now is there way of justifing how they've handled her all year long - and trust me, if they don't win - finishing in front of RA would be there big moral victory and cement their claim as the better horse.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Not mine.

Rupert - don't be on the wrong side of history - open your heart and fill it with hate for Zenyatta.

I understand what people are saying, and they have a point. Many of her wins have been in small fields against weak competition. There is no doubt about that. But it's not as if she's running in listed races. She's running in grade I races every time. It's not her fault if no good fillies enter these races.

There is no question that the connections are being more conservative because of the streak. If she would have already lost a race or two in her career, it would be much more likely that they would run against the boys more often. But how can you really blame them for not wanting to go undefeated? If she can go undefeated and then win the BC Classic again this year, she will definitely be considered one of the greatest mares, if not the greatest of all times. If a mare is undefeated at 20 for 20 and beats the boys in the BC Classic in back to back years, there won't be any debate about her place in history. I should say there won't be any debate amongst sane people. I'm sure a few of you will still say she's not great. You'll probably say that her Beyers weren't that great.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

It's not going to happen man. I realize Giacomo won the Derby - but lightening won't strike twice.

[Port Conway Lane]

Refresh my memory. When was it announced that she would run in the Classic?

http://www.drf.com/news/zenyatta-likely-test-males-classic

Another interesting viewpoint from Crist a few weeks earlier.
http://www.drf.com/news/no-sense-pressing-zenyatta

[Rupert Pupkin]

It's not going to happen man. I realize Giacomo won the Derby - but lightening won't strike twice.

That is an absurd statement. Giacomo looked like he had no chance. Zenyatta is a legitimate contender. She will be one of the favorites and she should be. When I say one of the favorites, she could be one of three or four co-favorites. The race looks that competive right now.

It should be a great race. I still think RA has a great chance. She's starting to look like her old self again. I'm not going to throw out QR based on one mediocre race. No horses run their best every time. QR may bounce back off this mediocre performance. Blame has turned into a really good horse. He will have a good chance. And I am very interested to see how Rail Trip runs on the dirt. It's possible he may step it up a level on the dirt. And then you have Lookin' At Lucky who is on the improve. If he keeps improving, he could have a chance. It should be a great race.

You're so stubborn that if Z does win, you still won't admit she's great. You'll say it was a fluke like Giacomo.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

A guy I befriended in Vegas last year who thought I was a genius because he asked me for "just one horse" for Friday and Sat and I told him Life is Sweet for Friday and Vale of York for Saturday ... the day after he starts talking about Zenyatta and said she won the BC Classic.

I'm like, No.. she didn't win the Breeders Cup Classic. The BC Classic hasn't been run since 2007. She won the Breeders Cup Brown Turf over Gio Ponti. Conduit won the Green Turf and she won the Brown Turf. The guy looked at me like I was nuts.

How's anyone supposed to take the last 3 Pacific Classic winners seriously? They haven't run the Pacific Classic in years as far as I'm concerned.

[Rupert Pupkin]

http://www.drf.com/news/zenyatta-likely-test-males-classic

Another interesting viewpoint from Crist a few weeks earlier.
http://www.drf.com/news/no-sense-pressing-zenyatta

My memory was incorrect. They obviously made the official announcement much later than I remember.

[Port Conway Lane]

In the article it said they will see how she does in her next workout. From what I recall it was very close to the 11th hour, maybe Wednesday before the race but I'm not positive.

[cmorioles]

In the article it said they will see how she does in her next workout. From what I recall it was very close to the 11th hour, maybe Wednesday before the race but I'm not positive.

It kind of happened right after it was announced Sea the Stars wasn't coming.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

It kind of happened right after it was announced Sea the Stars wasn't coming.

That absurd Euro that Team Valor owned winning the Goodwood and making a mockery of the older males out there - and than passing on the BC Classic - along with Gio Ponti going down to Interpartation made it an easier decision.

[Rupert Pupkin]

they say they are going to the bc. but they also said they were going to travel with her this year, let her fans see her, and try new things. if they haven't done any of that, how can you be sure they will really point to the bc? you can't. they talk a big talk, but what has she done differently this year? then you see the comments from them about cali, about not shipping, about the win streak. i don't think i'm going out on a limb by suggesting they really don't intend to go to the bc. i think they want peppers prides record, and the money won record. i think the bc is further down on the list, especially with her having won one.
it remains to be seen; i hope she goes, don't get me wrong. but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if she doesn't go.

They were planning on travelling this year but the trip to Oaklawn knocked her out a little bit. They know they're going to ship again for the BC and possibly once right before it. That is why they have not shipped her since the Oaklawn race. They felt that would simply be too many trips for the horse.

Anyway, they were very disappointed that they didn't win HOY last year. That is one of the main reasons they brought her back this year, to win HOY. They know they have to win the BC Classic to win HOY. Therefore, there is no doubt that they will run there assuming nothing goes wrong between now and then.

[Danzig]

They were planning on travelling this year but the trip to Oaklawn knocked her out a little bit. They know they're going to ship again for the BC and possibly once right before it. That is why they have not shipped her since the Oaklawn race. They felt that would simply be too many trips for the horse.

Anyway, they were very disappointed that they didn't win HOY last year. That is one of the main reasons they brought her back this year, to win HOY. They know they have to win the BC Classic to win HOY. Therefore, there is no doubt that they will run there assuming nothing goes wrong between now and then.


after reading shirreffs comments about shipping to ny, and not wanting to leave his string behind, i find their talk of wanting to travel with her just that-talk. they spoke the other day of wanting to support cali racing, and they're doing just that. fine with me. cali needs all the support it can get. we'll see about the bc when it happens. i hope she shows, but i won't be surprised if she doesn't. because right now, all they're doing about that is talking, just like the rest of it.

and be careful about saying 'there's no doubt in my mind'. i used that phrase and got clobbered for it by someone who took umbrage. hey, i hope you're right rupert. i hope she shows. but i'll believe it only when i see it. that's no slur on you at all.

[Revidere]

That absurd Euro that Team Valor owned winning the Goodwood and making a mockery of the older males out there - and than passing on the BC Classic - along with Gio Ponti going down to Interpartation made it an easier decision.

Thye were also hoping Quality Road would scratch earlier. They were really taking a chance there.

[rlesquib]

2 career stakes wins for the entire field other than Zenyatta? Did I count that right? No wonder they "adjusted" her training schedule so they could fit this one in.

Do ur homework Cakes. Last time I checked, the races Zenyatta has competed in, they are open for any1. Says alot when no Graded Stakes winners or place horses are 2 scared to show.

[MaTH716]

Do ur homework Cakes. Last time I checked, the races Zenyatta has competed in, they are open for any1. Says alot when no Graded Stakes winners or place horses are 2 scared to show.

Really??????????????? You mean colts and older horses were eligible too? Or are they ducking her as well.

[Danzig]

Really??????????????? u mean colts and older horses were eligible 2? Or are they ducking her 2.


ftfy

[rlesquib]

Whats the name of that horse that beat Rachel earlier this year and later smoked by Zenyatta ???

[MaTH716]

Whats the name of that horse that beat Rachel earlier this year and later smoked by Zenyatta ???

What's that have to do with your incorrect statement about Zenyatta running in races with no conditions?

[Crown@club]

Whats the name of that horse that beat Rachel earlier this year and later smoked by Zenyatta ???

Did we forget that the same horse came back to get smoked by Rachel?

[slotdirt]

Find me the horses that Zenyatta beat by 19.25 lengths that have since come back to win GI races on dirt. I can think of at least two from Rachel's Mother Goose last summer.

[NTamm1215]

You know, TVG had a trivia question the other night and the answer was a little surprising to me.

It was, how many different horses has Zenyatta beaten in her 17 wins (this was the night before the Hirsch)?

I didn't have the time nor inclination to sit down and add it up but figuring the Classic was 12 alone the number had to be somewhere around 125 or so.

The answer: 85

NT

[Thunder Gulch]

They were planning on travelling this year but the trip to Oaklawn knocked her out a little bit. They know they're going to ship again for the BC and possibly once right before it. That is why they have not shipped her since the Oaklawn race. They felt that would simply be too many trips for the horse.

Anyway, they were very disappointed that they didn't win HOY last year. That is one of the main reasons they brought her back this year, to win HOY. They know they have to win the BC Classic to win HOY. Therefore, there is no doubt that they will run there assuming nothing goes wrong between now and then.

They were disappointed they didn't win HOY, bring her back specifically to win HOY, and take the same route even though the competition is weaker. Here's an idea, you know some horses have won the award based on a year's worth of great racing. Wonder if anyone ever thought of that?

[cmorioles]

after reading shirreffs comments about shipping to ny, and not wanting to leave his string behind, i find their talk of wanting to travel with her just that-talk.

What string? He has 59 starts for the entire year.

[2Hot4TV]

You know, TVG had a trivia question the other night and the answer was a little surprising to me.

It was, how many different horses has Zenyatta beaten in her 17 wins (this was the night before the Hirsch)?

I didn't have the time nor inclination to sit down and add it up but figuring the Classic was 12 alone the number had to be somewhere around 125 or so.

The answer: 85

NT

According to most she has only beaten one horse,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,SLOW.

[2Hot4TV]

They were planning on travelling this year but the trip to Oaklawn knocked her out a little bit. They know they're going to ship again for the BC and possibly once right before it. That is why they have not shipped her since the Oaklawn race. They felt that would simply be too many trips for the horse.

Anyway, they were very disappointed that they didn't win HOY last year. That is one of the main reasons they brought her back this year, to win HOY. They know they have to win the BC Classic to win HOY. Therefore, there is no doubt that they will run there assuming nothing goes wrong between now and then.

I would agree with this from the change in her appearance.

If she manages to win the Classic this year she is HOY

[the_fat_man]

What string? He has 59 starts for the entire year.

Let me ask you some serious questions because all this Z bashing is beneath you:

what do you think her chances are of winning this year's Classic?


I mean, seriously, at some level you must clearly realize that this a a very nice horse. We're at the point where there are very few good 10F horses -- actually, we were always at this point. So much so, that some are even starting to believe that Musket Man is a race horse. I know you can't like RA in the Classic, so who does Z really have to beat in it? Anyone other than Blame?

It seems to me that her connections maybe understand some of this as well. They want to go into the biggest race of the year undefeated. You, and others, want her to campaign like Forego.

[cmorioles]

Let me ask you some serious questions because all this Z bashing is beneath you:

what do you think her chances are of winning this year's Classic?


What does any of this have to do with calling bullcrap on the Z camp comments? You telling me a guy with hardly any horses can't afford to travel with the greatest horse to ever step foot on the planet for a month?

We don't want her to campaign like Forego. Since when did 5 nothing races and the BC Classic become a good schedule?

[the_fat_man]

What does any of this have to do with calling bullcrap on the Z camp comments? You telling me a guy with hardly any horses can't afford to travel with the greatest horse to ever step foot on the planet for a month?

We don't want her to campaign like Forego. Since when did 5 nothing races and the BC Classic become a good schedule?

This is a DIFFERENT era. Things are done differently. Once upon a time there was a distinction between sprinters and routers. It actually took some skill to work a horse up to a route race. Yet, in Southern CAL, horses regularly stretch out, after even a single sprint, and come from off the pace to beat closing routers. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Sadler sent Twisted Candy to the ARC, without the benefit of another race, and had him win there. :rolleyes: I understand some of this is breeding but come on.

Then you have the case with Lake (and others) where his routers are able to outrun sprinters sprinting, on a regular basis. This with no workouts published. And so on.

And, your point of focus for the past year or so has been the way this horse has been campaigned? Was there ever a case where you could actually have made a score with this horse? (Other than last year's BC, possibly).

You think she can win the Classic?

[cmorioles]

This is a DIFFERENT era. Things are done differently. Once upon a time there was a distinction between sprinters and routers. It actually took some skill to work a horse up to a route race. Yet, in Southern CAL, horses regularly stretch out, after even a single sprint, and come from off the pace to beat closing routers. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Sadler sent Twisted Candy to the ARC, without the benefit of another race, and had him win there. :rolleyes: I understand some of this is breeding but come on.

Then you have the case with Lake (and others) where his routers are able to outrun sprinters sprinting, on a regular basis. This with no workouts published. And so on.

And, your point of focus for the past year or so has been the way this horse has been campaigned? Was there ever a case where you could actually have made a score with this horse? (Other than last year's BC, possibly).

You think she can win the Classic?

Why should I answer when you made no attempt whatsoever to address my question about the BS from the Z camp? I honestly don't even know where you are going with the rest of it.

Can she win the Classic? Sure, she could, but I don't think she will. I don't think she is near the same horse on dirt.

[Thunder Gulch]

Why should I answer when you made no attempt whatsoever to address my question about the BS from the Z camp? I honestly don't even know where you are going with the rest of it.

Can she win the Classic? Sure, she could, but I don't think she will. I don't think she is near the same horse on dirt.

Yes she can, but I don't think it really matters if she is as good on dirt as synthetic. This time she will face good dirt horses on dirt, not turf and dirt horses on Pro-Ride. The question will not be which surface she prefers, but is she really good enough to beat the best on a level playing field. That's point I beat my head against the wall trying to get some of you to understand. I'm of the opinion that she won't good enough to do so, but in one race scenario, I don't rule it out. If she faces the field that ran in the Whitney plus a few more, I'm betting against her doing anything more than sucking up for a minor share. Something like a 6-1 shot vs that group.

[the_fat_man]

Why should I answer when you made no attempt whatsoever to address my question about the BS from the Z camp? I honestly don't even know where you are going with the rest of it.

Can she win the Classic? Sure, she could, but I don't think she will. I don't think she is near the same horse on dirt.

How can I address your question when I don't own the horse? Tell you this much, if I agreed to go to OP on the condition that RA would be there, and she punked out after my 2nd stringer beat her, I certainly wouldn't be open to ACCOMMODATING her with a rematch -- especially one that entailed shipping cross country for. As for the taking on the males thing: what exactly does she gain by beating that sad bunch out there? Would they give her HOTY if she won a G1 for males?

If you don't think she can win the Classic, then bet against her, make a score, and have something to write about.

I don't get the obsession with this horse.

[Merlinsky]

How can I address your question when I don't own the horse? Tell you this much, if I agreed to go to OP on the condition that RA would be there, and she punked out after my 2nd stringer beat her, I certainly wouldn't be open to ACCOMMODATING her with a rematch -- especially one that entailed shipping cross country for. As for the taking on the males thing: what exactly does she gain by beating that sad bunch out there? Would they give her HOTY if she won a G1 for males?

If you don't think she can win the Classic, then bet against her, make a score, and have something to write about.

I don't get the obsession with this horse.

I'm not sure how much is about accommodating Rachel vs what Shirreffs said recently about not wanting to leave his barn for weeks at a time like he might feel he'd have to in order to do his best training job for Zenyatta. He was more interested in the Beldame last year, even though the BC was at Santa Anita while NY had detention barns, and I'm guessing it was because he could come right back to his home base. That was still a form of accommodation. The Apple Blossom was less so because she'd gone there before with no plan to face Rachel and won.

I'd argue Jackson was the one accommodating Oaklawn with the rushed return to the races for Rachel. He didn't duck Zenyatta as much as he decided (in a rare moment of logic) that he screwed up once, and why do it again? Didn't stop them from trying the figure 8 bit again, but as mistakes go, it's far better to make that one than throwing an ill-prepared RA to the wolves when Zenyatta wasn't hanging in a barn for 5 months doing nothing. She was in training that whole time. It's how we got tipped off she might not be retiring.

I just heard about RA's latest work. Sounds like she might be getting in better gear. I think she's still been kept in some state of mothball storage even up to the Lady's Secret. If it results in a Classic win, more power to'em, but then you gotta say the same to Shirreffs and the Mosses right? If we're being fair. Still, bloody frustrating.

[Danzig]

What string? He has 59 starts for the entire year.

good question, but shirreffs is the one you need to ask. he's the one who doesn't want to leave his other horses behind. i have no idea how many that might be.

[horseofcourse]

Find me the horses that Zenyatta beat by 19.25 lengths that have since come back to win GI races on dirt. I can think of at least two from Rachel's Mother Goose last summer.

It probably has no meaning whatsoever to anything, but Ginger Punch had a 7 race string where she won the BC Distaff, Sunshine Millions Distaff, Louisville Stakes, Ogden Phipps, Go For Wand, and Personal Ensign. Her one loss in that skein was by 8 lengths to Zenyatta on dirt. So she won a grade 2 and 3 grade 1s in succession after that 8 length loss to Zenyatta. But for a very lucky photo in the Personal Ensign by Ginger Punch, two horses Zenyatta beat by over 8 lengths in the Apple Blossom would have come back to win G1 races on dirt in the same year actually, but alas, ginger punch got the photo over Lemon Drop Mom.

Time and margins, time and margins. I'm pretty sure 6 horses in the Goodwood ran faster than Zenyatta did in the Lady's Secret on the same day last year. Somehow on BC day all those slow times Zenyatta ran last year didn't translate. These threads are unusual to say the least. It is what it is. They chose to duplicate what they did last year after stating they wouldn't. I have no idea why. But at some point we simply have to accept life as it is. Oh well. They chose a one race campaign last year and it worked (other than not getting HOY). They are choosing the same thing this year. I have no clue why they can't even contest the Hollywood Gold Cup...she certainly could have beaten Awesome Gem and Rail Trip like rented mules in that race, but they just don't want to push it. It's just part of the pure joy that the BC has created in the sport. One race catch all this year is all it is, and that is what the Zenyatta connections chose to do. 10 to 20 race campaigns by star horses will never happen again...ever.