2/20 (TAM): Tampa Bay Breeders Cup

[Bigsmc]

7th (3:03)
Tampa Bay S.

1 1/16 Miles (Turf) | Open | 4 Year Olds And Up Stakes | Purse: $150,000


Post # Horse Jockey Weight Claim Price Equip. Med.
1 Almoradi (IRE) Geroux F 116
2 Gio Ponti Dominguez R A 116 L
3 Public Speaker Centeno D E 118 L
4 Pickapocket Leyva J C 116 L
5 Mambo Meister Coa E M 116 L
6 Dinner in Odem Ortiz F L 116 L
7 Karelian Homeister R B Jr 116 L
8 Rahystrada Karlsson I 122 L
9 Quiet Emarati Perez E 116 L

[Antitrust32]

more importantly...

Race 11 - 4:52 PM
ALLOWANCE Purse $20,200

1 Smokey the Bandit (KY) 5/G L P Teator 118 R B Kohnhorst
2 Gentle Ride (KY) 4/F L D Centeno 113 L Rice
3 Musico Oso (KY) 5/G L I Karlsson 118 J A Dodgen
4 Atlantic Venture (KY) 4/C L C Montalvo 118 L M Scace
5 El Legado (FL) 5/G L* A R Ramgeet 118 R P Behrens
6 Colonel Klink (IL) 4/G L D Rodriguez 118 C Simon
7 E. J. Little Boy (FL) 5/G L V Bush 118 B McCarthy
8 Broad's Beware (FL) 4/C L H Villa-Gomez 118 J Ness
9 Potomac Manor (FL) 7/G L Y Rosario 118 J I Pimental
10 Causin' Havoc (KY) 4/C L R B Homeister, Jr. 118 E R Reed
Also Eligibles:
11 Winthrop House (MD) 4/G L M Allen 118 L Rice
12 Live the Dash (FL) 4/C L D Centeno 118 T E Salzman
13 Peaceful Slewtion (FL) 5/G L R Feliciano 118 K A Guciardo
14 Saratoga Storm (KY) 4/C L J C Leyva 118 J E Shaw


I'll be there!

[Bigsmc]

more importantly...

I'll be there!

:tro: :tro:

[MISTERGEE]

WOW, Dinner in Odem is running!!

[GPK]

WOW, Dinner in Odem is running!!

Wasiluk is such an idiot.

[Duvalier]

Wasiluk is such an idiot.
Maybe he'll get some consideration for Trainer of the Week.

[Antitrust32]

Wasiluk is such an idiot.

LOVE the avatar Kev!

[my miss storm cat]

2 Gio Ponti Dominguez R A 116

8 Rahystrada Karlsson I122
I don't get this...

Anyone want to explain? Thanks in advance.

[Bigsmc]

I don't get this...

Anyone want to explain? Thanks in advance.

http://www.tampabaydowns.com/documents/Racing/Stakes/TBBreedersCupNoms.pdf

[my miss storm cat]

Thanks! It just seemed kinda bizarre.

(Good luck to Colonel Klink).

[Danzig]

more importantly...

Race 11 - 4:52 PM
ALLOWANCE Purse $20,200

1 Smokey the Bandit (KY) 5/G L P Teator 118 R B Kohnhorst
2 Gentle Ride (KY) 4/F L D Centeno 113 L Rice
3 Musico Oso (KY) 5/G L I Karlsson 118 J A Dodgen
4 Atlantic Venture (KY) 4/C L C Montalvo 118 L M Scace
5 El Legado (FL) 5/G L* A R Ramgeet 118 R P Behrens
6 Colonel Klink (IL) 4/G L D Rodriguez 118 C Simon
7 E. J. Little Boy (FL) 5/G L V Bush 118 B McCarthy
8 Broad's Beware (FL) 4/C L H Villa-Gomez 118 J Ness
9 Potomac Manor (FL) 7/G L Y Rosario 118 J I Pimental
10 Causin' Havoc (KY) 4/C L R B Homeister, Jr. 118 E R Reed
Also Eligibles:
11 Winthrop House (MD) 4/G L M Allen 118 L Rice
12 Live the Dash (FL) 4/C L D Centeno 118 T E Salzman
13 Peaceful Slewtion (FL) 5/G L R Feliciano 118 K A Guciardo
14 Saratoga Storm (KY) 4/C L J C Leyva 118 J E Shaw


I'll be there!



i wish i could be! go klink!!!

[3kings]

Gio Ponti and The Colonel! Can't pass it up, see everyone Saturday.

[GPK]

How about the lineup in the 9th? Few hard knocking old fellas running for 25.

Lighting Power
Ballast
Tiger Woodman

[Rudeboyelvis]

I'm all over Edgar Perez/Dale Bennett (44%) in that one Kev

[GPK]

I'm all over Edgar Perez/Dale Bennett (44%) in that one Kev

You and me both Dan. Thats the play of the day IMO

I also think Edgars mount is a nice price play underneath Gio Ponti in the TBBC

[my miss storm cat]

How about the lineup in the 9th? Few hard knocking old fellas running for 25.

Lighting Power
Ballast
Tiger Woodman
Old guys rule!

* * *

Almoradi to beat Gio.

[my miss storm cat]

Oh well...

Good for Karelian! :D

edit - Objection / No change.

[MaTH716]

I though there wasn't a chance in hell of them leaving Rosemary up there. She rode some race, I'm glad they left her number up.

[brianwspencer]

I though there wasn't a chance in hell of them leaving Rosemary up there. She rode some race, I'm glad they left her number up.

It would've been a shame if they took her down, which I was totally expecting them to do.

Gio holds his ground and stays in the same path while Karelian floats out? You've got a rightful DQ. The fact that they float out 8 paths together with NO contact and then barely brush (if at all) just before the wire says totally correct on the non-DQ to me. Even Ramon admits the horse never hit Gio Ponti in the DRF recap.

Was sure Karelian was coming down -- refreshed to see he didn't.

[Cannon Shell]

61D-13.004 Maintaining a Straight Course.
(1) If the stewards determine that a racing infraction was intentional, or due to careless riding or driving, the jockey shall be held responsible.
(2) When the way is clear in a race, a horse may be ridden or driven to any part of the course, but if any horse swerves, or is ridden to either side so as to interfere with, impede, or intimidate any other horse, it is a racing infraction.(3) The offending horse shall be disqualified if, in the opinion of the stewards, the racing infraction altered the outcome of the race, regardless of whether the infraction was accidental, willful, or the result of careless riding.


According to the rules of racing in FL the horse should have come down. The horse obviously came out 4 or 5 paths and despite what you hear contact is not part of the rule. How it was ruled that Arnolds horse didnt at the very least intimidate Gio Ponte by bearing out so much in the stretch means to me the stewards dont even know the rules either because with the margin of defeat so close how could you possibly judge the infraction did not alter the outcome of the race?

[AeWingnut]

61D-13.004 Maintaining a Straight Course.
(1) If the stewards determine that a racing infraction was intentional, or due to careless riding or driving, the jockey shall be held responsible.
(2) When the way is clear in a race, a horse may be ridden or driven to any part of the course, but if any horse swerves, or is ridden to either side so as to interfere with, impede, or intimidate any other horse, it is a racing infraction.(3) The offending horse shall be disqualified if, in the opinion of the stewards, the racing infraction altered the outcome of the race, regardless of whether the infraction was accidental, willful, or the result of careless riding.


According to the rules of racing in FL the horse should have come down. The horse obviously came out 4 or 5 paths and despite what you hear contact is not part of the rule. How it was ruled that Arnolds horse didnt at the very least intimidate Gio Ponte by bearing out so much in the stretch means to me the stewards dont even know the rules either because with the margin of defeat so close how could you possibly judge the infraction did not alter the outcome of the race?


Rosemary so pretty

[Kasept]

Just got to watch the extended video for the first time...

If Karelian isn't taken down in that instance, you might as well not bother to have rules or stewards.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

There was a 3/1 shot standout on pace figures that won the race before Gio Ponti ... instead of betting him to win, I bet a cold double into Gio Ponti because it was paying $15. In other words - why bet the 3/1 shot to win when you can play a cold double and get that plus 4/5 odds on Gio Ponti to win a race where he figured to be 1/5 or less.

Anyway, I needed Gio Ponti to be put up in order to cash - so I wanted him to be put up .... but that would have been an absolutely gutless DQ by the stewards.

Take the rule book and shove it ... what happened in the stretch run of that race was good race riding by the jockey of the winner. Gio Ponti had every oppertunity to go by and the contact was very minimal if it even happened at all.

Jocks can pretty much get away with murder in the early stages of a race, you know, the part of the race where actual trouble is more significant. But they have to maintain a straight course in a desperate driving finish and many times can't even get away with brushing...it's a huge pet peeve of mine.

[Kasept]

Take the rule book and shove it ... what happened in the stretch run of that race was good race riding by the jockey of the winner. Gio Ponti had every oppertunity to go by and the contact was very minimal if it even happened at all.
As Chuck points out with the actual rules, contact is immaterial. Karelian herded Gio Ponti 5 paths across the track and then photoed him by a sheet of paper. It's a foul, and it's grossly apparent. If they ding-donged back and forth a path or two it would be one thing. But if you can't see that Gio Ponti's momentum is being carried wider and wider by the foe, I'm surprised. And as a proviso, I don't care for Gio Ponti or Clement.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

But if you can't see that Gio Ponti's momentum is being carried wider and wider by the foe, I'm surprised.

I can see it...

And I have a name for it...

It's called horse racing.

Let them play Steven .. let them play. He had every chance to go by if he was good enough. Her race riding cost GP maybe a neck in momentum tops.

[Kasept]

I can see it...

And I have a name for it...

It's called horse racing.

Let them play Steven .. let them play. He had every chance to go by if he was good enough. Her race riding cost GP maybe a neck in momentum tops.
I'm very much into letting them play and all for race-riding as part of the action. But isn't there an inherent and actionable difference between floating a horse wide in a turn... or aggressively riding for position like Mig did with Chavez in the Whirlaway... and failing to maintain a straight course during a stretch duel?

If indeed Karelian cost Gio Ponti a neck in momentum, by definition, that's a violation. As measured in "authentic physical space", it certainly would be enough to reverse the order of finish. If I'm viewing this as a steward, what I see is Gio Ponti denied the opportunity to maintain his course to the finish by the foe to his inside who was constantly impeding his forward progress.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I'm very much into letting them play and all for race-riding as part of the action. But isn't there an inherent and actionable difference between floating a horse wide in a turn... or aggressively riding for position like Mig did with Chavez in the Whirlaway... and failing to maintain a straight course during a stretch duel?

If indeed Karelian cost Gio Ponti a neck in momentum, by definition, that's a violation. As measured in "authentic physical space", it certainly would be enough to reverse the order of finish. If I'm viewing this as a steward, what I see is Gio Ponti denied the opportunity to maintain his course to the finish by the foe to his inside who was constantly impeding his forward progress.

Migliore wasn't agressively riding for position .. he outbroke 85ina50 and simply dove inside to cut him off and take his path away and almost put him down.

It was a very flagrent foul that would have had a huge impact on 85 in a 50's performance had his equipment not broke ... and, his equipment probably did break because that very flagrent foul caused Chavez to panic and grab instead of getting dropped to the ground.

He didn't actually put Chavez on the ground though ... so no, he shouldn't have been DQ'd.

Cohen .. was also not riding for position when he gunned his mount several paths to the inside to bump 85 in a 50 and pin him on the rail. Again, a very flagrent foul that would have seriously hindered 85 in a 50's chances had he not bolted from broken equipment.

He didn't actually put Chavez over the fence though - or even cause the horse to bounce off the rail... so no, he shouldn't have been DQ'd.

Gio Ponti was as courageous in the stretch run yesterday as he was in his last turf race when he seemingly had the bum Interpatation put away - but Interpatation fought back to win by 2 lengths.

[Kasept]

Well, we have very different interpretations of the beginning of the Whirlaway...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

In what way?

If you don't think Chavez was intentionally cut-off by Migliore after breaking a bit slow you're absolutely blind. I hope that isn't what you're talking about.

So, I assume you mean that Cohen was just riding for position when he gunned his mount inside, bumped with Chavez, and pinned him near the rail before the turn?

[Bigsmc]

Ramon, "I could see it going either way."

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Ramon, "I could see it going either way."

When they showed the camera angle at 4:51 into this link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVxZd6Pfr1E


I thought there was zero chance of them doing anything ... but, the camera angle they kept showing from higher up after that looked worse.

On the angle at 4:51 I would have said there was no chance of a take down - at the later angle - I thought there was an 80 percent chance of one.

[ateamstupid]

I would've taken him down. I realize there was no contact, but you shouldn't be able to drift over seven paths in deep stretch, win by a nose and stay up.

[Cannon Shell]

I would've taken him down. I realize there was no contact, but you shouldn't be able to drift over seven paths in deep stretch, win by a nose and stay up.
While I agree with your conclusion again if you read the rule, contact is never mentioned. If the race was a 10 claimer the winner would have been taken down in a heartbeat.

[ateamstupid]

While I agree with your conclusion again if you read the rule, contact is never mentioned. If the race was a 10 claimer the winner would have been taken down in a heartbeat.

I know, I'm referring to what DrugS said about contact.

[Cannon Shell]

I know, I'm referring to what DrugS said about contact.
(5) If a horse or jockey jostles another horse, the aggressor shall be disqualified, unless the jostle was wholly caused by the fault of some other horse or jockey or had no impact upon the outcome of the race.

Section of the rules dealing with contact though this is the FL rule which may be worded different in NY

[randallscott35]

I think the horse should've come down. I've seen plenty of no contact takedowns.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I know, I'm referring to what DrugS said about contact.

I thought he was 80% to come down after seeing the up-top head on angle, I wanted him to come down so I could cash my double, according to the rules he should have come down.

As a bettor though, my stance is F' the F'ing rules. It's a desperate finish - let them play.

I'm not quite one of those guys like DRF's Dick Jeradi who believes there should never be a takedown for any reason - only jockey fines and purse redistributions ... but, I would say I disagree with most takedowns.

The fact is that the most worthless and meaningless trouble that can occur to a horse in a race happens in the late stages when the horses are all decelerating. Yet, a slight foul there is going to result in a DQ.

Horses who get fouled in an earlier and far, far, far more important stage of the race often run so poorly that these fouls get a pass because the assumption is they performed so poorly that the foul didn't matter. You pretty much have to dislodge the rider from his mount for a takedown to occur at some places...unless it happens in deep stretch.

[Cannon Shell]

I think the horse should've come down. I've seen plenty of no contact takedowns.
And the problem is that if the same thing happens in a maiden race next Friday, the winner will come down and there is no explaination from the stewards. They should be forced to make public a document regarding every inquiry or claim of foul with the rule stated in the case of a takedown or the reasoning behind a no call. This is a easily accomplished solution to a tricky problem in the perception issue of racing. While there will always be disagreements in judgement situations it would at the very least force some accountability in the stewards stand, make them actually know what rules they are supposed to be enforcing and add transparency to the process while costing nothing more than ink and paper. Naturally this will never happen.

[Cannon Shell]

I thought he was 80% to come down after seeing the up-top head on angle, I wanted him to come down so I could cash my double, according to the rules he should have come down.

As a bettor though, my stance is F' the F'ing rules. It's a desperate finish - let them play.

I'm not quite one of those guys like DRF's Dick Jeradi who believes there should never be a takedown for any reason - only jockey fines and purse redistributions ... but, I would say I disagree with most takedowns.

The fact is that the most worthless and meaningless trouble that can occur to a horse in a race happens in the late stages when the horses are all decelerating. Yet, a slight foul there is going to result in a DQ.

Horses who get fouled in an earlier and far, far, far more important stage of the race often run so poorly that these fouls get a pass because the assumption is they performed so poorly that the foul didn't matter. You pretty much have to dislodge the rider from his mount for a takedown to occur at some places...unless it happens in deep stretch.
A lot of what you said is true but the idea that jockeys would police themselves (which is what would have to happen in the land of no DQ's) is crazy. The white elephant in the room that everyone either ignores or simply isnt aware of is that in many jurisdictions the stewards themselves dont know or understand the rules properly and the facade of stewards accreditation makes this problem even worse. There are some people who have completed the Stewards accredadition program who simply arent bright enough to understand the rules or would have a hard time reading the rulebook, let alone comprehend it.

The problem isnt the rules, it is the inconsistent application of them.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I agree that a lot of these decisions are inconsistent.

I also wish they'd consistantly take fewer horses down.

[AeWingnut]

Stewards are the final word. They don't have to go by photos they don't have to follow their rules. I think we've all seen how inconsistant they are and some of the crazy things that happen over the years.

[randallscott35]

I agree that a lot of these decisions are inconsistent.

I also wish they'd consistantly take fewer horses down.
This a misnomer. I see just as many not taken down who should as the other way around. All the horseplayer wants is consistency.

[Antitrust32]

Gio Ponti and The Colonel! Can't pass it up, see everyone Saturday.

was great to meet you!

[3kings]

was great to meet you!

You too Lori, had a great time. On the way home I was laughing at us celebrating the non take down as the Gio Ponte people probably MF'ed us less than 10 feet away.