3/28 (GP): Florida Derby (G1); Swale (G2); Appleton (G3)

[robfla]

9TH (5:11) Swale S. (G2)

7 Furlongs | Open | 3 Year Olds Stakes | Purse: $150,000

1 This Ones for Phil Gomez G K 120 L
2 B Z Warrior Velazquez J R 114 Blk-On L
3 Sabi Sabi Lezcano J 118 L
4 Custom for Carlos Desormeaux K J 114 L
5 Brave Victory Leparoux J R 116 L
6 Big Drama Coa E M 120 L



10TH (5:44) Florida Derby (G1)

1 1/8 Miles | Open | 3 Year Olds Stakes | Purse: $750,000

1 Toby the Coal Man Leparoux J R 122 L
2 Quality Road Velazquez J R 122 L
3 Casey's On Call Baird E T 122 L
4 Dunkirk Gomez G K 122 L
5 Sincero Trujillo E 122 L
6 Theregoesjojo Desormeaux K J 122 L
7 Danger to Society Madrid M 122 L
8 Europe Decarlo C P 122 L
9 Stately Character Douglas R R 122 L



11TH (6:15) Appleton S. (G3)

7 1/2 Furlongs (Turf) | Open | 4 Year Olds And Up Stakes | Purse: $100,000

Post # Horse Jockey Weight Claim Price Equip. Med.
1 Passager (FR) Lezcano J 122 L
2 Vanquisher Montalvo C 120 L
3 Kiss the Kid Trujillo E 122 L
4 Granizo (BRZ) Nunez E O 114 L
5 Bold Start Desormeaux K J 120 L
6 Avanti Avanti Lopez P 116 L
MTO Hypocrite Cruz M R 120 L
8 Cannonball Douglas R R 120 L
9 Artic Cry Leparoux J R 114 L
10 Pickapocket Gomez G K 120 L
11 T. D. Vance Velazquez J R 122 L
12 Fagedaboudit Sal Decarlo C P 120 L

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Nicanor will be about 4/5 in the 5th race.

[Sightseek]

Nicanor will be about 4/5 in the 5th race.

Don't torture us with your avatar!


________________________________________________

Quality Road.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Don't torture us with your avatar!

Sorry,

Couldn't find one of Joe Tessitore.

[robfla]

Sorry,

Couldn't find one of Joe Tessitore.


http://i44.tinypic.com/2qktchz.jpg

[Sightseek]

Switch to that, it's more kind on the eyes!

[cakes44]

Where is Prado? Snagging him this year might be the worst jockey pick in the history of RTTR.

[NTamm1215]

Where is Prado? Snagging him this year might be the worst jockey pick in the history of RTTR.

He's in Dubai.

NT

[robfla]

Where is Prado? Snagging him this year might be the worst jockey pick in the history of RTTR.

Riding Arson Squad.

[ateamstupid]

Anyone else find it funny that Tabor/Smith are using a $2.6 million horse as a rabbit? Jesus.

[robfla]

Anyone else find it funny that Tabor/Smith are using a $2.6 million horse as a rabbit? Jesus.

yeah, i saw that... why not use a 30k claimer thats a confirmed sprinter

[NTamm1215]

Anyone else find it funny that Tabor/Smith are using a $2.6 million horse as a rabbit? Jesus.

I also find it funny that there was another speed horse entered after all (Casey's On Call). It's even more questionable that they think QR is a horse who may not get an even better trip by stalking the rabbit or rating kindly before taking off.

Team TAP seems to have been following Dutrow's lead.

NT

[lemoncrush]

If Big Drama runs well in the Swale, do you think there's any chance they reconsider their decision to not point towards the Derby?

I know they announced the decision a couple weeks ago as betting for the
2nd Derby Futures pool was about it begin, and it made sense then not to mislead bettors.

But unless they believe it's "too much too soon" or he can't get the 1-1/4 distance, I don't see why not.

[Bobby Fischer]

Danger to Society is kind of an unknown factor in this one. A lot of the 3rd choice wagering will gear towards JoJo, and Danger is arguably more deserving.

[Bobby Fischer]

Toby The Coal Man's finish last out (37.6 final 3/8ths) was surprisingly fast. To be honest the pace was kind of soft and I'm not too crazy about this horse. It was a quicker time than I expected, and i will want to look at the variant for that day and maybe hand time it. Just a nose margin, but the place horse had a great trip with the exception of maybe being asked a little early.

EDIT - no the time is right , and per DRF the track variant was about the same 21 vs 20. He could save ground all the way. Honestly handicapping the 3rd and 4th slots is moot. This isn't a betting race as much as it is an important prep.

[Dunbar]

fixed odds at TheGreek.com:

301 Dunkirk +125
302 Quality Road +185
303 Rest of the Field +185

A prop:

Danger to Society will finish top 3 Listed runners must start for bets to be action. $200 limit.
321 Yes +225
322 No -305

Matchups:

Dunkirk vs Quality Road Listed runners must start for bets to be action. $200 limit.
311 Dunkirk -150
312 Quality Road +120

Quality Road vs There Goes Jojo Listed runners must start for bets to be action. $200 limit.
313 Quality Road -160
314 There Goes Jojo +130

--Dunbar

[Mike]

Danger To Society scratched

[IrishofNDMan]

Playing a little on Stately Character hoping for the upset, and boxing in a tri with Dunkirk and Theregoesjojo.

GL

[eajinabi]

Florida Derby will be a very nice race to watch but horrible betting race.

[Bobby Fischer]

too bad gomez didn't ride TOFP in the FOY

pretty nice Swale. I don't know how juiced the track was but they set the track record.

[Bobby Fischer]

gotta come down

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Coa giving Gomez some of his own cheating stuff.

[Bobby Fischer]

i call that the camel

2 bumps

[Bobby Fischer]

got the 1st 3 straight in my pick 6

jinxing by redboarding the link for todays piece on the HANA blog http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/

" From a handicapping perspective, I really like the "Big 2" here. Quality Road figures to go out and cruise along the rail. Dunkirk can challenge on the 2nd turn and beat him in the stretch. I am looking for value in the 3rd slot. Theregoesjojo is a nice horse, but may flatten out with the distance. I'll use longshots Toby The Coal Man, and Sincero for 3rd in tris and supers. I'll also play an exacta with Dunkirk And Quality Road over Toby The Coal Man, and use Dunkirk and Quality Road with Artic Cry in the Daily Double.

Selections
Race 7. #9 Vitruvius
Race 8. #4 Rogue Victory
Race 9. #1 This Ones For Phil
Race 10.#4 Dunkirk
Race 11.#9 Artic Cry
Race 12.#5 Street Talk'n Man"

[SCUDSBROTHER]

i call that the camel

2 bumps

Yea, he's got to get more lessons from Gomez. Not smooth enough. Be more subtle(fool.)

[Bobby Fischer]

Yea, he's got to get more lessons from Gomez. Not smooth enough. Be more subtle(fool.)
true

the Swale shows how terrible Prado did on TOFP in the Fountain of Youth.

Quality Road still wins that race, but Prado really did a horrible job with a powerhouse horse in an extended sprint. Much better horse as I think DougS said from just off the pace rather than setting the pace.

[Bobby Fischer]

looks like Dunkirk is getting over bet

Quality Road is going to be a handful with this speed favoring track.
What a stupid choice to scratch the rabbit Europe. A rabbit was a good idea. - Actually a good idea would have been to enter a reliable early speed sprinter... - not a maiden who broke slow in his only race.

You're tellin me this goofy Casey's on Call is supposed to "ensure a good pace" ? Pletcher and Tabor really depending on that? That must just be talk from Nicoletti and co.. because Casey can't be the reason Pletcher scratched Europe.
QR is going to trot to the lead on the rail...

[SCUDSBROTHER]

looks like Dunkirk is getting over bet



Even if ya like him, don't know how ya take that price. People can't just watch huh?

[Bobby Fischer]

Even if ya like him, don't know how ya take that price. People can't just watch huh?'

Guess not.
Jojo is even worse at 7-2.

[Bobby Fischer]

Quality Road really scares me on an uncontested lead.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Quality Road really scares me on an uncontested lead.

Yea, trying to get by J.V. in the stretch ain't my thing.

[Bobby Fischer]

great race

[slotdirt]

Well, color me impressed.

[Coach Pants]

I love to see that.

Go back to Ireland.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

That's about what I expected. Good race from both.

[slotdirt]

Good for Jimmy Jerkens. I see Pletcher has plenty of excuses.

[Sightseek]

:{>: Quality Road

Todd is crying like a sissy. I Want Revenge would eat Dunkirk.

[philcski]

Hell of a performance. JV must have known he had a monster if he skipped the big money in Dubai.

[Bobby Fischer]

no reason to knock either. They both ran big.
Quality Road might be the triple crown horse this year.

[Coach Pants]

Bias or not that's a tough SOB.

[TheSpyder]

Very Happy for Jerkins and I know who I like in the Derby now. Gutsy effort in the lane and if QR has more to improve I say his style and experience makes him the one to beat.

Great ride too.

[eajinabi]

Flop job by Desormaux. Give him the Vlade Divac trophy!

[Bobby Fischer]

now does Pletcher/Dunkirk pull hijinx and rush into something to get more earnings for Derby? or just let it play out naturally and go Preakness, Belmont ?

[Travis Stone]

Pletcher wasn't too happy after the race, did anyone hear the line he gave Edwards? That was awesome regardless, great horse race!

[Cannon Shell]

Cant tell you how happy I am for JJ.

Though Pletcher was right, the track is ridiculous today.

The Lexington just got a lot tougher

[randallscott35]

now does Dunkirk pull hijinx and rush into something to get more earnings for Derby? or just let it play out naturally and go Preakness, Belmont ?

I can't see them going to the Lex for that. They await the Preakness, but he may yet get in at 150k. Time will tell.

[cakes44]

I'm liking my 18-1 on Friesan Fire more every week.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

no reason to knock either. They both ran big.
Quality Road might be the triple crown horse this year.

Has a good chance to win the Derby, but it's too deep a year for him to win the T.C.

[Bobby Fischer]

Pletcher wasn't too happy after the race, did anyone hear the line he gave Edwards? That was awesome regardless, great horse race!
can you paraphrase it?
watching via xpressbet video feed

[eajinabi]

now does Dunkirk pull hijinx and rush into something to get more earnings for Derby? or just let it play out naturally and go Preakness, Belmont ?

Go for the Peter Pan and beat Also rans then build the hype for the Belmont and scratch the day before. Its called the Casino Drive Strategy

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Great ride too.


JRV placed him in a great spot - but almost got caught with his pants down on the far turn.

I don't think he ever saw Dunkirk until he was almost on level terms. He appeared to be looking back for Dunkirk as well just before he got level. I'm sure he'd have liked to push the button a tad sooner had he saw Dunkirk coming to him with a head of steam.

Garret Gomez rode a tremendous race. I don't think the track was playing kind to Dunkirk's style ... but he placed him perfectly - moved at the perfect time - and almost caught JRV sleeping.

[Cannon Shell]

That may be the all time lame excuse. They got rain last Sunday?

[Sightseek]

Cant tell you how happy I am for JJ.

Though Pletcher was right, the track is ridiculous today.

The Lexington just got a lot tougher

But do you think he would have said that if he had Quality Road?

[mclem0822]

Pletcher wasn't too happy after the race, did anyone hear the line he gave Edwards? That was awesome regardless, great horse race!It was a great race I agree, I'd love to see them both go on to the Derby. The track records keep getting smashed today.

[justindew]

That may be the all time lame excuse. They got rain last Sunday?

Agreed. Pletcher is correct to bitch, although he could have scratched.

[Cannon Shell]

But do you think he would have said that if he had Quality Road?
While it does look a little like whining after the fact, the track was certainly souped up. Though that isnt a real big surprise

[Cannon Shell]

Agreed. Pletcher is correct to bitch, although he could have scratched.
True. he should have bitched after the 1st.

[ArlJim78]

Velasquez never saw Dunkirk until quite late, I thought Dunkirk had the clear jump on him. They both dug in impressively.
Its criminal how they monkey with the tracks on big days, and I still don't know why they do it. Who does it benefit?

[Bobby Fischer]

Has a good chance to win the Derby, but it's too deep a year for him to win the T.C.

Belmont is a big stretch but he stamped himself Derby Preakness favorite.

For those who felt Friesan Fire wasn't brilliant enough have a more talented alternative...

[Cannon Shell]

You think he's Derby/Preakness favorite already? It's way too early. Quality Road's a very nice horse. But there is a big difference between sitting a dream trip on a bias track in a small field and a 20 horse field Derby Day. I wouldn't want to take too short a price on him, even though he's been nothing short of brilliant so far.
Agreed. JV rode him perfectly today, got him a little breather on the turn and didn't panic when Dunkirk ranged up quickly on him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

True. he should have bitched after the 1st.

There are days when the track is souped up - times are lightning fast - and wide closers do very well throughout the card. Have an edge.

Just as there are days - like today in Dubai - when the track is very slow and tiring - times are slow - and the inside speed is at an extreme advantage.

Dunkirk labored over one of those slow tiring tracks in his debut at GP when he won in 1:25 and change.

A lot of times path and style biases seem to occur on funky weather days - and they said the winds were blowing at 25 MPH.

[Bobby Fischer]

You think he's Derby/Preakness favorite already? It's way too early. Quality Road's a very nice horse. But there is a big difference between sitting a dream trip on a bias track in a small field and a 20 horse field Derby Day. I wouldn't want to take too short a price on him, even though he's been nothing short of brilliant so far.

I think he's got a real good shot at being the betting favorite barring a freak injury. Not necessarily saying he's "my" favorite.

[Sightseek]

I think he's got a real good shot at being the betting favorite barring a freak injury. Not necessarily saying he's "my" favorite.

If I Want Revenge wins like he did in the Gotham, I think he's the favorite.

[Cannon Shell]

There are days when the track is souped up - times are lightning fast - and wide closers do very well throughout the card. Have an edge.

Just as there are days - like today in Dubai - when the track is very slow and tiring - times are slow - and the inside speed is at an extreme advantage.

Dunkirk labored over one of those slow tiring tracks in his debut at GP when he won in 1:25 and change.

A lot of times path and style biases seem to occur on funky weather days - and they said the winds were blowing at 25 MPH.
Looking at the flags it looked like a strong tailwind down the backstretch

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Belmont is a big stretch but he stamped himself Derby Preakness favorite.

For those who felt Friesan Fire wasn't brilliant enough have a more talented alternative...

I think it's very difficult to say who ran better today. A lack of speed is a problem at Gulfstream. They knew that going in. Fact is that Dunkirk was behind, and still is playing catch up quite well. Maybe they should just accept the fact that they started too late, and aim for one of the other 2 legs. This was a tough race for him. He made a big move on a speed favoring track. It's not just a problem of coming in 2nd. It's how much it took out of him to have to fight that bias.

[TheSpyder]

He looked very tired and can't see them wheel him back. If they do and no matter what happens, no way he does well in the Derby. and if by ssome way he does win the Derby, they'll run the horse into the ground going after the TC.I think it's very difficult to say who ran better today. A lack of speed is a problem at Gulfstream. They knew that going in. Fact is that Dunkirk was behind, and still is playing catch up quite well. Maybe they should just accept the fact that they started too late, and aim for one of the other 2 legs. This was a tough race for him. He made a big move on a speed favoring track. It's not just a problem of coming in 2nd. It's how much it took out of him to have to fight that bias.

[Bobby Fischer]

If I Want Revenge wins like he did in the Gotham, I think he's the favorite.

If I want Revenge wins like he did in the Gotham, where does that rank this crop??

Holy Smokes

[SCUDSBROTHER]

He looked very tired and can't see them wheel him back. If they do and no matter what happens, no way he does well in the Derby. and if by ssome way he does win the Derby, they'll run the horse into the ground going after the TC.

Yea, I think he is gunna need 6 weeks minimum(that's just a gut feeling.) Do they have that?

[Sightseek]

If I want Revenge wins like he did in the Gotham, where does that rank this crop??

Holy Smokes

He's racing essentially the same field, doesn't mean the rest of the crop prepping on the other circuits are no good.

I do expect (hope for?) more out of Imperial Council though.

[Bobby Fischer]

we have a good crop this year.

possibly a very good one

[Danzig]

can you paraphrase it?
watching via xpressbet video feed

pletcher said he complained to one of the top guys at the track about how they tinkered with the surface. referenced the fact it was the second track record today (big drama in the swale-stands even with the dq i guess), that if he had known they were going to mess with the track and produce a bias for front runners, he'd have gone to aqu next week instead. he seemed pretty ticked off-whether it's a legit beef, i don't know.

[fpsoxfan]

Agreed. Pletcher is correct to bitch, although he could have scratched.

Exactly. Pletcher could have showed a little more class. Why didn't he run in the Wood to begin with??

[Danzig]

Exactly. Pletcher could have showed a little more class. Why didn't he run in the Wood to begin with??

probably because he thought he could win here. now, let's see if cooler heads prevail with the horse and future plans.

[fpsoxfan]

probably because he thought he could win here. now, let's see if cooler heads prevail with the horse and future plans.

Good Point. Obviously Dunkirk has a load of talent. He just ran into a very tough horse today. I'd hate to see him miss the derby because of earnings, especially when he's arguably one of the top five three year olds.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Exactly. Pletcher could have showed a little more class. Why didn't he run in the Wood to begin with??

I would imagine it's difficult when you lose, and they jam the mic in your face right away. It is hard to complain like that without looking like you're trying to take away from the winners performance. They would of been closer together. That's all you can really say. There were easier spots. For whatever reason, they chose this spot.

[Bobby Fischer]

I would imagine it's difficult when you lose, and they jam the mic in your face right away. It is hard to complain like that without looking like you're trying to take away from the winners performance. They would of been closer together. That's all you can really say. There were easier spots. For whatever reason, they chose this spot.

Good point.

I was having a discussion with a handicapper (Draynay) yesterday evening, and the topic of how fast the track was yesterday came up. With The Bonnie Miss going fast in spite of hard fractions, Dr. Pleasure equaling Quality Road's FOY time in an allowance, and the last race 18K claimers buzz sawing through a sub 1:16.

I feel bad for Pletch, but you can't take it away from Quality Road. If a 2nd in this truely top class race doesn't get you in, the blame isn't as much on the track as it is on circumstance.

[Danzig]

I would imagine it's difficult when you lose, and they jam the mic in your face right away. It is hard to complain like that without looking like you're trying to take away from the winners performance. They would of been closer together. That's all you can really say. There were easier spots. For whatever reason, they chose this spot.

i don't think anyone would react well when someone is basically asking 'how'd it feel to lose?'

[philcski]

He's racing essentially the same field, doesn't mean the rest of the crop prepping on the other circuits are no good.

I do expect (hope for?) more out of Imperial Council though.

Thinking Fischer is saying this is a special crop... and I agree.

I think it's very difficult to say who ran better today. A lack of speed is a problem at Gulfstream. They knew that going in. Fact is that Dunkirk was behind, and still is playing catch up quite well. Maybe they should just accept the fact that they started too late, and aim for one of the other 2 legs. This was a tough race for him. He made a big move on a speed favoring track. It's not just a problem of coming in 2nd. It's how much it took out of him to have to fight that bias.

Scuds on fire today.

[NTamm1215]

I thought the track was significantly more speed-favoring on Holy Bull day. The inside was certainly good, but the inside is good at GP quite often.

If Dunkirk apologists are blaming the track, that's fine, more power to them.

NT

[Coach Pants]

There are plenty of opportunities to get into the derby. Let Pletcher cry all he wants. Run your horses and get them in if it means that much to you.

[Travis Stone]

I thought the track was significantly more speed-favoring on Holy Bull day. The inside was certainly good, but the inside is good at GP quite often.

If Dunkirk apologists are blaming the track, that's fine, more power to them.

NT

If both were in the Derby right now, I would probably have to take Dunkirk. For one the Derby pace is going to be much quicker, and Dunkirk's price will probably be a bit higher than their separation in ability.

Dunkirk ran a really good race today - we've said all year how hard it is to close at Gulfstream. He's a very nice race horse. Quality Road is too.

[philcski]

Pletcher should be whining to Gulfstream about cutting the purse to $750k from a million. That additional $50k will probably be the difference between being on the right side and the wrong side of the cut line.

[NTamm1215]

If both were in the Derby right now, I would probably have to take Dunkirk. For one the Derby pace is going to be much quicker, and Dunkirk's price will probably be a bit higher than their separation in ability.

Dunkirk ran a really good race today - we've said all year how hard it is to close at Gulfstream. He's a very nice race horse. Quality Road is too.

Not happening. The Derby pace is not going to be much quicker than today's pace was, souped up track and all.

Predicting the pace in the Derby is a dangerous game anyway because many people thought the 2004 pace would preclude Smarty Jones from getting a good stalking trip. Quality Road has proven twice now that he can sit just off of a fast pace and finish well. What about that would make anyone not like him in a race like the Derby? He's also maturing with each start and has learned to rate nicely.

Considering Dunkirk won't be in the Derby at this moment, I'd have to see what he does in his final prep if he's in the gate on May 2.

NT

[mbahadur]

Exactly. Pletcher could have showed a little more class. Why didn't he run in the Wood to begin with??

It would have been just as difficult to win the Wood (which has the same $750K purse as the Fla Derby) with I Want Revenge in there as it would have been the Florida Derby. On HRTV before the race, when asked about the comparison to Big Brown going into the Florida Derby last year, Jeff Siegel stated that this was a much tougher field than Big Brown had to face.

The $1 million Arkansas Derby may have been a good fit for Dunkirk's running style if Pletcher could have waited 2 more weeks (second in the Arkansas Derby is also worth more than second in the Fla Derby).

[Travis Stone]

If one is 8-1, the other is 4-1... no thanks. But, depending on what happens out west, there's a chance Dunkirk will be fourth, fifth and maybe even sixth choice. Last year they were 13-1, 17-1, 19-1... Dunkirk at 19-1, versus QR at say 3-1... makes it interesting from a value standpoint. Interesting discussion too for a horse currently not in the race.

[Travis Stone]

The $1 million Arkansas Derby may have been a good fit for Dunkirk's running style if Pletcher could have waited 2 more weeks (second in the Arkansas Derby is also worth more than second in the Fla Derby).

Not an easy track to close on... and right now there isn't loads of speed in Arkansas. Silver City is not going... so it's Papa Clem and who else on the front?

[ELA]

Pletcher was disappointed. He was interviewed right there, on the spot, that moment. With everything considered, and of course his horse got beat fairly easily as well, emotion is going to come into play. No matter how he got beat, he got beat and Pletcher would be disappointed. Easy to understand.

As far as the Derby goes, if they want to try and get in -- rushing, pushing the envelope, etc. -- if that's the price they want to pay, they will pay it.

Eric

[Danzig]

Pletcher was disappointed. He was interviewed right there, on the spot, that moment. With everything considered, and of course his horse got beat fairly easily as well, emotion is going to come into play. No matter how he got beat, he got beat and Pletcher would be disappointed. Easy to understand.

As far as the Derby goes, if they want to try and get in -- rushing, pushing the envelope, etc. -- if that's the price they want to pay, they will pay it.

Eric

none of the horses seem to have much bottom going in these days. i don't think it would be much of a stretch to run dunkirk. it's not as tho the rest of the field is going in with double-digit starts anymore.

[ELA]

none of the horses seem to have much bottom going in these days. i don't think it would be much of a stretch to run dunkirk. it's not as tho the rest of the field is going in with double-digit starts anymore.

Yes, I'll agree. You can look to Big Brown, Curlin, etc. OK. So, what are they going to do here, run again to get in? Which race? I just don't see it. I think people will debate it all day, but the bottom line is that he didn't do enough to get in. With Big Brown, simply put, he won it so it was clear cut. Curlin -- he had a G3 and a G2 in his last two starts before the Derby.

Regardless, I see your point. I just don't see Dunkirk doing anything but sitting on the bubble and waiting. If he gets in, sure he'll run, but I don't see it being the ideal, far from it.

Eric

[Kasept]

Pletcher was disappointed. He was interviewed right there, on the spot, that moment. With everything considered, and of course his horse got beat fairly easily as well, emotion is going to come into play. No matter how he got beat, he got beat and Pletcher would be disappointed. Easy to understand.

As far as the Derby goes, if they want to try and get in -- rushing, pushing the envelope, etc. -- if that's the price they want to pay, they will pay it.

Eric
Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

[justindew]

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

Steve, come on. Three track records? (Edit: or maybe just two)

However, if your analysis of him looking less than 100% is on the money, then I'd have to agree that pushing on is a bad decision. I had heard he looked like a million bucks.

[ELA]

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

Also? Steve, I didn't defend what Pletcher said. It just didn't surprise me. In addition, I didn't say anyone should sympathize with Pletcher. I just think it's very easy to understand him being disappointed.

Pletcher's a big boy, playing in the big leagues and if someone in the media wants to "call him out" so to speak regarding these comments, they will. Were there some excuses here? Sure. Like I said, he was disappointed. His horse got beat. Period.

Eric

[Scav]

Was it really a surprise the track was like that? When is a track not souped up on a big day? But, I wouldn't focus on the "track records" too much. Aren't the new records only since the track was reconfigured? So we are only looking at a few years worth of races to compare. But, also aren't a majority of track records more an indication of the track, then who is doing the running?

Exactly

[justindew]

Hey, I only see two track records. Where is the third?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Was it really a surprise the track was like that? When is a track not souped up on a big day?

It was very dull on Sunshine Millions day .. which I believe is GP's second biggest day.

This One's For Phil and You Luckie Mann were the only two horses who ran a respectable final time that day. YLM hasn't even had a single workout since that race ... I'm assuming he also suffered a stall injury from the stress of that performance.

I have no problem with how fast they make the track ... I personally prefer to see lightning fast race tracks ... I think horses of all running styles handle them better and races are run truer to form - but all I want them to do is to do the best they can at keeping the track consistant throughout the day so that you can do a proper job of analyzing the races afterwards without all kinds of guess work.

[prudery]

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

Childish and unsporting behavior from Pletcher to be sure . Churchill soups for the Derby as well ... I think he was cheesed off about scratchin the rabbit ...

Nice catch on Dunkirk's appearance---it has not been brought up much .

I thought he looked like a skinny filly coming down the stretch, and Kate Moss when they hosed him down--too bloody frail and tucked up .

Not an animal you would expect to have the physical reserves/resources to be bound for the classics ...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

You know what I'm saying. I don't mind a lightning fast, FAIR surface. But generally, don't you expect the surface on the big days to be quicker than usual?

Was there any doubt after the first today? Which by the way, was a super performance by Just Ben I thought. I loved his dam when she was running.

Yeah - Chip was nice ... and yeah ... on the biggest days ... the track is typically made very fast.

Every year going back almost as far as I can remember people complain about it at the Derby. Yet, you have had 7 of the last 12 Derby winners take the Preakness ... and of the 12 only Monarchos and Barbaro missed the board in the Preakness. You've had a wide variety of successful running styles as well...and considering the massive field size - you've had more fairly run races than you'd expect. I never got the complaining.

[Antitrust32]

It doesnt bother me if Pletcher complains... who cares really.. its fucl<ing horse racing. But he has a heck of a horse and it will really upset me if some euro piece of trash who won some stupid race gets in before just him.

He can win the Derby as easily as the other few good horses this year.

This was a good race and I'm happy to see some quality horses after last year....

[Bigsmc]

I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

:tro:

[Kasept]

Also? Steve, I didn't defend what Pletcher said. It just didn't surprise me. In addition, I didn't say anyone should sympathize with Pletcher. I just think it's very easy to understand him being disappointed.

Pletcher's a big boy, playing in the big leagues and if someone in the media wants to "call him out" so to speak regarding these comments, they will. Were there some excuses here? Sure. Like I said, he was disappointed. His horse got beat. Period.

Eric
His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

[Kasept]

However, if your analysis of him looking less than 100% is on the money, then I'd have to agree that pushing on is a bad decision. I had heard he looked like a million bucks.
You heard he looked like a million bucks? I strongly suggest you stop taking recommendations of horse appearence from whoever told you that.



Nice catch on Dunkirk's appearance---it has not been brought up much .

I thought he looked like a skinny filly coming down the stretch, and Kate Moss when they hosed him down--too bloody frail and tucked up .

Not an animal you would expect to have the physical reserves/resources to be bound for the classics ...
Thank you prudery... That's a nice compliment coming from an actual judge of horseflesh.

[Danzig]

Yes, I'll agree. You can look to Big Brown, Curlin, etc. OK. So, what are they going to do here, run again to get in? Which race? I just don't see it. I think people will debate it all day, but the bottom line is that he didn't do enough to get in. With Big Brown, simply put, he won it so it was clear cut. Curlin -- he had a G3 and a G2 in his last two starts before the Derby.

Regardless, I see your point. I just don't see Dunkirk doing anything but sitting on the bubble and waiting. If he gets in, sure he'll run, but I don't see it being the ideal, far from it.

Eric

after reading what pletcher had said before the race, i don't expect they run him again.

[Danzig]

i think he could have expressed his obvious disappointment in a better way than pointing fingers at the surface. no doubt he was incredibly down, not only did he lose the fla derby, he pretty much lost the kentucky derby as well. if he really thought this horse could win THAT race, then the blow was far more serious than getting a second in a gr 1. but he played his hand-perhaps poorly? ultimately, he has to take the blame, he's the one who chose the venue-and chose not to run europe.

maybe the withers and then preakness?

[Kasept]

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

[Sightseek]

I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

:tro:

I agree.

[robfla]

You heard he looked like a million bucks? I strongly suggest you stop taking recommendations of horse appearAnce from whoever told you that.


I am going to guess that "looking like a million bucks" is NOT a good thing when the purchase price was 3.7mm

[Kasept]

That was a Vista result?

I guess I just get a chuckle out of people being outraged that someone reacted negatively to something like watching their chances of going to the Derby probably ended. I'll tell you one thing, I'm glad there isn't a camera on me when I lose a photo for a big score or get DQ'd. I'm sure we all are.
Who's outraged? I'm amused.

[fpsoxfan]

After reading through this thread, I went to espn.com and watch the race again. IMO the better horse won this race fair and square. Dunkirk made a huge move and Quality Road who rated nicely behind the speed just pulled away from him. Souped up track or not Quality Road is just a better horse at this point in time. I really don't understand how this track could've been unfair to Dunkirk. As far as Pletcher being a bit rude...whatever. It's like a coach blaming the refs/umps for losing a game. You're emotional/frustrated and later realize you shouldn't of said it. How about Jimmy Jerkens? It sure is nice to see him go to the big show.

[philcski]

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

Dutrow's only excuse after the Belmont was "no excuse". He went to the barn and sulked by himself. Initially he took a shot at Desormeaux but later retracted. I have no problem with that, I'd rather hear that than "Mr. Microsoft" blaming the track superintendent when the truth was he got run off his feet by a BETTER HORSE.

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

:tro: This might be your all time best analogy- I laughed

[philcski]

Run off his feet? I must have watched a different race. One more time, I'm not excusing the whining. I think it was poor judgement on his part. But, he was right and he was frustrated in the heat of the moment. Don't we all say things we regret during those times, right or wrong?

Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.


Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.

[NTamm1215]

Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.


Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.

Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT

[justindew]

Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

[fpsoxfan]

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

I'm not sure he had to re-break. He was just gliding along when Dunkirk made his move. It was obvious that Johnny V. knew he still had a ton of horse coming around the turn. He was looking around for Dunkirk and was waiting to push the button on this horse.

[Bobby Fischer]

that track couldn't have been much better for a speed horse

there shouldn't be any debate about that. It was fast and horses were lasting.


Did they soup it up for Saturday? No. It was this bad on Friday. I didn't even check Wed or Thurs...

Quality Road ran a huge race and won. There is nothing whatsoever to take away from him. You can come up with fantasy tracks and fantasy trips, but you have to give credit to the horse who ran the actual race, when they run so great.
Dunkirk ran a huge race and happened to lose. He had to make a sustained move to tackle maybe the best rival, after that one had a dream trip and dream track, and he only lost by a couple lengths. What a great race that was.

The top two IMO both had the best 1 1/16th+ dirt preps we've had this year.
I don't know that I Want Revenge or Friesan Fire could have beaten them on a mythical "fair track".

[Travis Stone]

It's not criminal to like both Quality Road and Dunkirk... seems as though we are trying split hairs on two talented horses.

[Kasept]

:rolleyes:

I'll remember your amusement now when someone criticizes one of the "untouchable trainers" in the future.
:tro:

Who's cornered the market on playing both sides of the fence better than you?

[fpsoxfan]

It's not criminal to like both Quality Road and Dunkirk... seems as though we are trying split hairs on two talented horses.

Correct.

[Sightseek]

It's not criminal to like both Quality Road and Dunkirk... seems as though we are trying split hairs on two talented horses.

At least we have more than one interesting horse to debate this year!

(although, like Phil said, having a pace advantage is ideal and why I think Quality Road is the better horse ;) )

[Kasept]

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?
FYI. Quality Road's splits..

:23.3
:23.2 (:47.0-1st half)
:23.3 (:47.0-middle half))
:24.3 (:48.1-2nd half)
:12.2 (:37.0-Final 3f)

[Travis Stone]

At least we have more than one interesting horse to debate this year!

I said this last night... this year is more exciting than anything last year produced.

[justindew]

FYI. Quality Road's splits..

:23.3
:23.2 (:47.0-1st half)
:23.3 (:47.0-middle half))
:24.3 (:48.1-2nd half)
:12.2 (:37.0-Final 3f)

Yeah, I mean, that kind of looks like he had a lot left at the end after not-slow early and internal fractions.

I don't know. I can't help but think his win, as strong as it was, was at least slightly aided by the surface. If not, then people calling him a superhorse may not be speaking prematurely. And let's not forget this was his first start around two turns.

[NTamm1215]

I just wanted to throw into the discussion something that's not relevant to these horses going forward. But, wasn't Desormeaux's last ditch flop aboard Theregoesjojo funny? He had given the horse basically no chance to win through the opening six furlongs, so he decided to "check" when "interfered with" wll the while being left behind.

Sometimes I think Desormeaux ought to pay trainers to use him.

NT

[Bigsmc]

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

If it was a "normal GP surface" as you call it, those fractions wouldn't have happened.

It would have been a different race with probably the same outcome.

[justindew]

I just wanted to throw into the discussion something that's not relevant to these horses going forward. But, wasn't Desormeaux's last ditch flop aboard Theregoesjojo funny? He had given the horse basically no chance to win through the opening six furlongs, so he decided to "check" when "interfered with" wll the while being left behind.

Sometimes I think Desormeaux ought to pay trainers to use him.

NT

The horse is a fast-closing sprinter, but Kent's antics were laughable though not surprising.

[NTamm1215]

Yeah, I mean, that kind of looks like he had a lot left at the end after not-slow early and internal fractions.

I don't know. I can't help but think his win, as strong as it was, was at least slightly aided by the surface. If not, then people calling him a superhorse may not be speaking prematurely. And let's not forget this was his first start around two turns.

You're taking another step that I'm not and some other people also are not.

We've all agreed that the track was fast. It was faster than normal, without question. However, you're assuming that because it was fast, that it favored speed. I think. If so, that's where we disagree.

I wish CJ would weigh in because he brought up on the PA hall of fame board that while the numbers were fast his figures had the pace being pretty soft. That explains, in part, how QR seemed to have a ton left at the quarter pole.

What I would grant is that the time had a lot to do with the track, but I don't think the sped up track had much, if anything, to do with Quality Road's victory.

NT

[Travis Stone]

I just wanted to throw into the discussion something that's not relevant to these horses going forward. But, wasn't Desormeaux's last ditch flop aboard Theregoesjojo funny? He had given the horse basically no chance to win through the opening six furlongs, so he decided to "check" when "interfered with" wll the while being left behind.

Sometimes I think Desormeaux ought to pay trainers to use him.

NT

TGJJ got a really nice setup in the FOY, was able to close while saving ground and was guaranteed to be overbet in the Fla. Derby as a result. He's another in a solid list of horses in this crop who will make the Kings Bishop a really good race this year.

[Kasept]

The horse is a fast-closing sprinter, but Kent's antics were laughable though not surprising.
His 'antics' were smart.

[justindew]

His 'antics' were smart.

I'm referring to him standing up and acting like he'd been interfered with. Are you?

[Kasept]

I'm referring to him standing up and acting like he'd been interfered with. Are you?
Yes.. He knew his horse was about done. The top 2 did in fact pinch him off... Why not claim foul and hope the stand doesn't have the best view of it and gets it wrong? Wasn't going to happen in a race like this, but in an everyday situation, had a horse in Jojo's scenario finished better, he might very well get a move-up from the stews. I thought it was pretty cheeky and clever even though it wasn't going to go anywhere. It also endears you to the trainer/owner who know from a move like this that you're thinking about their interests.

[Sightseek]

Yes.. He knew his horse was about done. The top 2 did in fact pinch him off... Why not claim foul and hope the stand doesn't have the best view of it and gets it wrong? Wasn't going to happen in a race like this, but in an everyday situation, had a horse in Jojo's scenario finished better, he might very well get a move-up from the stews. I thought it was pretty cheeky and clever even though it wasn't going to go anywhere. It also endears you to the trainer/owner who know from a move like this that you're thinking about their interests.

Their interests? Come on Steve.

[Kasept]

Their interests? Come on Steve.
Well, his own as well. But plenty of guys just hop off and wouldn't have thought twice.

[slotdirt]

I seem to recall someone involved with Hossy's mystery horse galloping Easy Goer in the mornings, but I might be remembering that wrong.

[Kasept]

I seem to recall last year a horse with a similar situation as Dunkirk. He needed earnings and they chose to run the horse at a track that is generally biased towards early speed. The horse threw in a clunker and after the race the owner of said horse complained that the track wasn't fair. Now, to be fair, his comments were not intended to be made public, but they unfortunately were. Is there a difference here?
Pletcher, the most visable and most industry-promoted conditioner in the sport, is supposed to be gracious about the situation. Owners can say whatever they want for the most part. Some you appreciate and understand better than others. Jess Jackson is a good example. He says ridiculous things about Curlin's legacy, and you nod and say "uh huh" because he knows nothing about the history of the sport.

[Kasept]

I seem to recall someone involved with Hossy's mystery horse galloping Easy Goer in the mornings, but I might be remembering that wrong.
Exactly. Warren is another guy who knows very little and is led around by the decisions of 'advisors'.

[ELA]

His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

Perhaps I just don't hold Pletcher to the standards many others do. I expected him to make remarks like that. I would not have predicted the specific remarks, but they don't surprise me at all. I wouldn't think about it either way. There is no doubt that he has benefitted from the same circumstances -- but, the big difference? His horse got beat, so all bets are off so to speak. Why the surprise here?

For the most part I agree. I guess our reactions and the surprise factor is just different.

As far as "vintage" Pletcher, I don't know, yeah the dominance was there but there were also numerous other players ready to take the field. "Back in the day" -- would he/they have raced him back and looked to get into the Derby field? I don't know. I don't play the "what would they do" hypothetically game that well. It's far to hard in the claiming game, LOL.

Regardless, at this point it's all supposition.

Eric

[ELA]

after reading what pletcher had said before the race, i don't expect they run him again.

I agree all things being equal. I just don't know anything about the decision making process, attitudes, mindset, etc. involved with the people in that camp. I don't know Todd, nor do I know the owners. However, often, the owners play the game very differently than anyone else. OTOH, they have no one to answer to. The conversation just goes 'round and 'round.

Eric

[justindew]

Yes.. He knew his horse was about done. The top 2 did in fact pinch him off... Why not claim foul and hope the stand doesn't have the best view of it and gets it wrong? Wasn't going to happen in a race like this, but in an everyday situation, had a horse in Jojo's scenario finished better, he might very well get a move-up from the stews. I thought it was pretty cheeky and clever even though it wasn't going to go anywhere. It also endears you to the trainer/owner who know from a move like this that you're thinking about their interests.

What if he had cost the horse 3rd?

[Antitrust32]

FYI. Quality Road's splits..

:23.3
:23.2 (:47.0-1st half)
:23.3 (:47.0-middle half))
:24.3 (:48.1-2nd half)
:12.2 (:37.0-Final 3f)


those are some good finishing fractions... Didnt Cannon mention that there was a big tail wind on the back streach? Wouldnt that mean the wind was in their faces for the ride home? If so those are real quick fractions IMO.

[TheSpyder]

I think head winds are in their faces. And tail winds are...well you get it.those are some good finishing fractions... Didnt Cannon mention that there was a big tail wind on the back streach? Wouldnt that mean the wind was in their faces for the ride home? If so those are real quick fractions IMO.

[Antitrust32]

I think head winds are in their faces. And tail winds are...well you get it.


thats what i said... Cannon mentioned the tail wind was on the backstreach..

so wouldnt there be a head wind in the home streach?

[Bobby Fischer]

for the last 3/8ths.

Quality Road 36.99

and Dunkirk 36.85



Big Brown came home in 38.08 in the 2008 Florida Derby

The Big 2 may have had the fastest come-home times since the track was re done , not sure. Obviously it's hard to get a lot out of it because the track was so fast , and horses weren't quitting.

[Cannon Shell]

Pletcher, the most visable and most industry-promoted conditioner in the sport, is supposed to be gracious about the situation. Owners can say whatever they want for the most part. Some you appreciate and understand better than others. Jess Jackson is a good example. He says ridiculous things about Curlin's legacy, and you nod and say "uh huh" because he knows nothing about the history of the sport.
Why exactly is he supposed to be gracious? I don't understand the big deal about what he said. Regardless of he was correct or incorrect in his take on the track, complaining about track conditions is something that trainers have been doing forever. And if Bill Murphy really said that the rains the previous Sunday were the reason for the speed of the track on Saturday, he deserves to be ridiculed.

[King Glorious]

The track was fair for Dunkirk all the way to the top of the stretch and then it became unfair. Right. If it had been a lesser horse than Quality Road up there, Dunkirk would have gone on by and Pletcher would have had nothing to say. Because it was a good horse that didn't stop running and outran him down the lane, something that could have possibly happened no matter what they were running on, it suddenly is to be blamed on the track.

Why didn't he just scratch then? He had seen all the races that day leading up to the Florida Derby. If he thought it was unfair, he should have scratched and then run in the Wood. I guarantee that Aqueduct would not have souped up their track for Wood day. They NEVER do that. Horses naturally run 7f in 1:20 and change on that track all the time so just because we saw the Carter go in 1:20.22 and the Bay Shore go in 1:20.67 in 2004, just because we saw the Carter in 1:20.46 and the Wood in 1:47.16 in 2005....we can't assume that they soup up on Wood day.

[Indian Charlie]

Carlsbad is going to win the Ky Oaks.

The track was fair for Dunkirk all the way to the top of the stretch and then it became unfair. Right. If it had been a lesser horse than Quality Road up there, Dunkirk would have gone on by and Pletcher would have had nothing to say. Because it was a good horse that didn't stop running and outran him down the lane, something that could have possibly happened no matter what they were running on, it suddenly is to be blamed on the track.

Why didn't he just scratch then? He had seen all the races that day leading up to the Florida Derby. If he thought it was unfair, he should have scratched and then run in the Wood. I guarantee that Aqueduct would not have souped up their track for Wood day. They NEVER do that. Horses naturally run 7f in 1:20 and change on that track all the time so just because we saw the Carter go in 1:20.22 and the Bay Shore go in 1:20.67 in 2004, just because we saw the Carter in 1:20.46 and the Wood in 1:47.16 in 2005....we can't assume that they soup up on Wood day.

[Bobby Fischer]

The track was fair for Dunkirk all the way to the top of the stretch and then it became unfair. Right.
:confused:

[blackthroatedwind]

Not that anyone would misconstrue your remarks as being " on the record " but how exactly are comments made on internet message boards allowed to be considered " off the record? "

[philcski]

Not that anyone would misconstrue your remarks as being " on the record " but how exactly are comments made on internet message boards allowed to be considered " off the record? "

Wait, didn't you just strike something you said from the record? :confused:







:D

[blackthroatedwind]

Well Andy you come on here enough tooting your horn about buddy Andy Beyer and Nick Zito. You go figure it out midget.;)


You could be a little more clever than making one comment that suits you.

[Scav]

You could be a little more clever than making one comment that suits you.

Well played

This thread could get good though

[blackthroatedwind]

Take it easy. I made an innocent joke about the " off the record " comment and only somebody looking for a fight would have reacted as you did. You need to form your own opinion here and not rely on the thoughts of someone else.