A true stiffing

[The Bid]

Im not sure if anyone in here watched the 4th at Santa Anita today, but the stiffing Talamo put on Le Cirque should land him a suspension, fine, and anything else horseracing can lay on him. Absolutely criminal

[MaTH716]

Bid, I just watched the race a couple of times and I am not sure what you are seeing that I am not. Besides the fact that he was wide going in to the stretch, I really didn't think he did anything wrong. The horse veered in slightly after geting hit with the stick and it looked like he changed hands a few times to keep her straight. I think if he really wanted to stiff her, he would have stayed on the rail in traffic instead of making the big move that he did.

[ArlJim78]

there was nothing wrong with the ride, his rally fell a short by a nose while the other horse was very game to the wire. Talamo gave it a good effort.

[pgardn]

Talamo sure made it close.
He could done a better job of
losing than that.

[ArlJim78]

Talamo sure made it close.
He could done a better job of
losing than that.
right, Gomez did a much better job of losing on the favorite who was up the track. I guess he stiffed that one too?

[tiggerv]

Wow, are we watching the same race? Le Cirque hung. Happens all the time.

[The Bid]

Pshew, glad you guys arent chart callers

Yeah we are watching the same race the difference is I know what Im watching

You also wont get a fair view of the actual nonesense unless its on big screen. A broken up race replay isnt going to do this Desormeaux-esq butcher, stiff job, justice.

[ArlJim78]

oh well that clears up everything then. funny how a losing wager can cloud ones judgement.

people are going way way overboard around here with the jockey blame. bad rides, stiffs, etc.

[The Bid]

Its just the difference between someone that knows and a neophyte

[the_fat_man]

That's just a bad ride by a bad jock. He's wide on the turn with a move that just doesn't win on that turf course, then can't keep the horse straight in the lane while putting on a laughable display of switching the whip and adjusting the reins while being unable to finish. You can't be riding at a major track with that kind of finish.

Which is ironic given all the **** I had to read on this and other boards about how good Talamo is.

At least when Kent doesn't finish well it's typically a result of OVER adjusting the reins to the point where he basically has no more resistance and can't control the horse.

Then again, at 2:60 to 1 it might not be appropriate to bitch about rides.

[The Bid]

Fatman I can respect it being a terrible ride. I find it nearly impossible that horse didnt pass when he rolled up on even terms. He measured the horse inside and just quit riding. Whether its a stiffing, or just a horrible ride, its not hanging. Its a joke

He should be fined for not riding that mount out, and he should get days

The finish......There was no finish. He just stopped riding

[pick4]

Le Cirque won his maiden and has gone on to lose 14 straight races.
Was the first race pure luck? He's bred well but he consistantly falls short. Fast paces, slow paces, too short of gound, not enough of ground.

The horse was 5 wide into the stretch and looked like he had momentum. The rail was OUT 30 feet, Talemo was whipping the horse between the 1/16 pole and the finish line and gave him an agrreesive hand ride for the last few jumps.

I think the 5 wide trip was the difference in this race. Plus you have to remember that these are pack animals and there are some who do not like to pass another when in the heat of battle.

[The Bid]

Please stop, I cant take it.

That horse didnt hang. He rolled up to the 16th with all the momentum in the world, draws even, Talamoses takes a visable measure to his inside, then decides hes hands and heels to the wire. You do not stop riding 100 yards from the wire once you put your nose in front with all the momentum

[pick4]

Please stop, I cant take it.

That horse didnt hang. He rolled up to the 16th with all the momentum in the world, draws even, Talamoses takes a visable measure to his inside, then decides hes hands and heels to the wire. You do not stop riding 100 yards from the wire once you put your nose in front with all the momentum

You might be right. But agonizing over one photo finish in a horse race only makes matters worse. Le Cirque is 1 for 15 and will probably be 1 for 16 after his next race.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

This here is a complex situation.Here are the factors involved:

1)That fkn rail is out so damn far that it's a huge momentum killer for raters.

2)Le Cirque has 1 win,and 6 times has come either 2nd or 3rd(not good.)

3)Le Cirque has a much smaller neck/head(not good for close finishes.)

4)No pressure on the winner the whole race.Horse had something left.

5)The biggest one involved here is the one people always try to overlook or ignore.That is that MR. BARRY ABRAMS has certainly increased the energy level of his horses.

Atleast Talamo rated a rater.Miss Chantal got such a high from winning this race that she then took YMUSTICHASETHECAT to the lead(a horse she just won with from deep off the pace.) I think where Talamo lost the race was being wide at the exact wrong time to be wide.If they wait until the stretch to move out then they have a much better shot.There is not enough pace in these long races....Period....People are gunna differ about whether to hand ride or not.You lose races back on the turn with that wide move at the apex of the turn.He lost this race there.

[pick4]

This here is a complex situation.Here are the factors involved:

1)That fkn rail is out so damn far that it's a huge momentum killer for raters.

2)Le Cirque has 1 win,and 6 times has come either 2nd or 3rd(not good.)

3)Le Cirque has a much smaller neck/head(not good for close finishes.)

4)No pressure on the winner the whole race.Horse had something left.

5)The biggest one involved here is the one people always try to overlook or ignore.That is that MR. BARRY ABRAMS has certainly increased the energy level of his horses.

Atleast Talamo rated a rater.Miss Chantal got such a high from winning this race that she then took YMUSTICHASETHECAT to the lead(a horse she just won with from deep off the pace.)

YMUSTICHASETHECAT benefitted from a meltdown pace and he was on the best part of the track two back after breaking poorly in his prior race at the 16k level. This time he broke well which he usually does. Would it have made sense for Chantal to choke the horse to keep him from doing what he normally does? Plus he was rising in class and was facing horses who were competitive at the 32 claiming level.

My pick four went up in flames because I singled Mitchell's dropper. That was poor handicapping on my part. It was a very competitive race and looking back the winner made sense.

[letswastemoney]

i didn't see the race, but people always complain about horses being whipped too much as well. maybe Talamo knew what he had and felt the horse was giving its all.

[The Bid]

I would suggest watching the race. Talamoses never knows what he has or doesnt have. The ride was a disgrace

[SCUDSBROTHER]

YMUSTICHASETHECAT benefitted from a meltdown pace and he was on the best part of the track two back after breaking poorly in his prior race at the 16k level. This time he broke well which he usually does. Would it have made sense for Chantal to choke the horse to keep him from doing what he normally does? Plus he was rising in class and was facing horses who were competitive at the 32 claiming level.

My pick four went up in flames because I singled Mitchell's dropper. That was poor handicapping on my part. It was a very competitive race and looking back the winner made sense.

The horse was raised in class because it is doing well.She obviously had a better result as a hunter than as a leader.So,lets not argue.The horse will return to win easily from off the pace....easily...So,agree to disagree until then.The horse likes to win,but she gave him no chance to do that today.He is empty mid-race,and she deserved that.She should get cute n' creative at home with fkn crayons (not at the track.)Again,for the contrarians...the horse will return,and be rated(as he should be.)So,we will compare that result with todays cute experiment.Actually it isn't an experiment.Look at the result of the same tactics used on JAN 4TH,AND NOV 28th.He doesn't like to duel.

[pick4]

The horse was raised in class because it is doing well.She obviously had a better result as a hunter than as a leader.So,lets not argue.The horse will return to win easily from off the pace....easily...So,agree to disagree until then.The horse likes to win,but she gave him no chance to do that today.He is empty mid-race,and she deserved that.She should get cute n' creative at home with fkn crayons (not at the track.)Again,for the contrarians...the horse will return,and be rated(as he should be.)So,we will compare that result with todays cute experiment.Actually it isn't an experiment.Look at the result of the same tactics used on JAN 4TH,AND NOV 28th.He doesn't like to duel.

Falling in love with a low level claiming horse is probably not wise, There was a reason this horse was running at 16. These are not the most reliable runners and the form cycles can swing on the dime. It's best to fugettaboudit and move on.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Falling in love with a low level claiming horse is probably not wise, There was a reason this horse was running at 16. These are not the most reliable runners and the form cycles can swing on the dime. It's best to fugettaboudit and move on.

No,I know what happened,and I know the horse must be ridden properly or the result will be poor.You're right about one thing.It does no good to talk about it.She made a decision and I have got to live with the results.The only thing keeping him from winning today was she got him in a duel.He will run much better when rated next time.Unfortunately,people bet differently from the way they talk,and he will be bet.Whether people admit it or not,they know he will have a better shot rated next time. It's not like he will have odds........Did you say reliable? How about the Mitchell he raved about all last week,and it did zero-nothing.

[tiggerv]

No,I know what happened,and I know the horse must be ridden properly or the result will be poor.You're right about one thing.It does no good to talk about it.She made a decision and I have got to live with the results.The only thing keeping him from winning today was she got him in a duel.He will run much better when rated next time.Unfortunately,people bet differently from the way they talk,and he will be bet.Whether people admit it or not,they know he will have a better shot rated next time. It's not like he will have odds........Did you say reliable? How about the Mitchell he raved about all last week,and it did zero-nothing.

Pace in that race was quite a bit different than I expected. I had Indian Weaver who I thought would get a nice stalking trip behind Gomez's horse but Saul took him towards the back and then of course let Rosario get the jump on him.

As far as the supposed stiff job, I won't argue that Talamo gave a good ride because he didn't. He was clumsy with the reins and whip down the stretch and didn't seem to care much about saving ground. Keeping her straight seemed like a big effort for him. However a proven hanger who doesn't like to win got a wide trip and couldn't pass a front runner who got no pace pressure and an easy ground saving trip. Not at all unusual. Was Le Cirque the better horse today? Maybe but this horse doesn't like to win. Would Bejarano, Gomez or Flores won on that horse today? Probably. Perhaps we are just talking semantics but I wouldn't call it a stiff job or anything suspension worthy just because he didn't go all chop-chop on her and got nosed out.

Talamo's luster wore off months ago with his bad ride on Nashoba's Key in the Breeders Cup keeping her in the slop on the rail and then getting a big head and firing his agent because he was jealous of Tyler's mounts. He hasn't been the same since. Very surprised he didn't got to Fairgrounds this winter.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

is this the p.a.board?:eek:

[Immanuel Kant]

Talamo's luster wore off months ago with his bad ride on Nashoba's Key in the Breeders Cup keeping her in the slop on the rail and then getting a big head and firing his agent because he was jealous of Tyler's mounts. He hasn't been the same since. Very surprised he didn't got to Fairgrounds this winter.


Congratulations ! You are the winner! Tell him what he's won Johnny!
I'd be very surprised if Joe wasn't in New Orleans next Thanksgiving.

[2Hot4TV]

What!

we are bashing JOE TALAMO?

I said he wasn't that good back in November and this board jumped on me like buzzards on a road kill in Texas.

He's young and if he keeps his agent, he will do fine if he can learn anything from the other jockeys.

He still isn't that good right now.

[NTamm1215]

The biggest shame is that Talamo is still getting blamed for a ground saving ride in the Breeders' Cup over a mythical bogged down rail. Was that not the same rail that Kip Deville sat on the entire way until he was tipped out down the stretch?

NT

[The Bid]

It needs to be addressed. I watched the ride 200 times and it gets worse each time.

[docicu3]

The good news is that the jock is very very young and hopefully will take the lesson of having far less success these last six months as an opportunity to remediate his skills, his character and his willingness to be humble and teachable regarding things he is yet to learn about making split second decisions on the oval

In all candor I root for the kid and hope he can develop his skills to the level he needs to make a living in So Cal

[Scav]

What!

we are bashing JOE TALAMO?

I said he wasn't that good back in November and this board jumped on me like buzzards on a road kill in Texas.

He's young and if he keeps his agent, he will do fine if he can learn anything from the other jockeys.

He still isn't that good right now.

His downfall started when he got into a pissing match with Ebanks because Ebanks wanted both Tyler Baze and Talamo. And this is when Tyler was getting hot again. Jealously is a bitch. I think it is Ebanks, but it might be Ron Anderson...

It also didn't help that Bejarano made the move there because he essentially took ALL of his mounts (Walsh and Frankel most notable)

[cmorioles]

It needs to be addressed. I watched the ride 200 times and it gets worse each time.

You have spent about 7 hours watching the replay of a 5 to 2 shot getting nosed?

[The Bid]

Maybe not 200 but at least 40 times. Ive watched it more times than I should have

[PSH]

The biggest question i have is why anyone would want to go to the lead on that surface at SA????

It seems that 90% of the time or more that speed doesn't hold. I can understand that if you are on a horse that is speed and can't be controlled that maybe you have no choice. That said, why would Chantal even consider to have the horse in yesterday's 6th on the lead????? Makes no sense to me.

If the jocks all understand that you can't be on the lead on the synthetic what happens? Do they draw straws to see who will be on the lead every race? I assume not. Someone always goes to the lead when in theory they should be stalking or sitting in the back on a closer for that one run. NOthing is more frustrating then placing a wager on a horse at SA and seeing the jock rush up to the lead when the PPs show that they don't need to do that.

PSH

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

he can still go back to church and fg and smoke robbie a all day.:cool:

[ArlJim78]

he can still go back to church and fg and smoke robbie a all day.:cool:
that wouldn't take much.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

The biggest question i have is why anyone would want to go to the lead on that surface at SA????

It seems that 90% of the time or more that speed doesn't hold. I can understand that if you are on a horse that is speed and can't be controlled that maybe you have no choice. That said, why would Chantal even consider to have the horse in yesterday's 6th on the lead????? Makes no sense to me.

If the jocks all understand that you can't be on the lead on the synthetic what happens? Do they draw straws to see who will be on the lead every race? I assume not. Someone always goes to the lead when in theory they should be stalking or sitting in the back on a closer for that one run. NOthing is more frustrating then placing a wager on a horse at SA and seeing the jock rush up to the lead when the PPs show that they don't need to do that.

PSH Yea,I don't understand why she did it.I was worried about having the one hole again,and thought I would probably lose to somebody with a better post.My guess is this was on her mind(a possible bad trip,) and she had room and horse to get decent stalking position.I just wish she would of rated a length off(ala Prado,) because that is a way he has won.He has won from just off,and from deep.He even has won when getting a clear lead.Yesterday was the 3rd time he has failed miserably when dueling on the lead.To me,the track still favors the style of the winners of the 6th,and 8th races.She won on the lead in the 4th race(a turf race marathon.) She then saw Garcia survive on the lead in the 5th race dirt sprint.That was a horrible group in the 5th race,though.Also,Garcia is a world class gate to wire speed jock.With Valenzuela gone (maybe forever,) this is probably the best jockey out here for stealing sprints gate to wire.If you have a pressured pace on that track,I still think you're at a big disadvantage right now......Anyways,my horse could easily have beaten that 5 horse from off the pace,and that's why it frustrates me so much that she didn't rate him.I had a feeling the droppers were all horses off form that trainers were trying to drop to get wins by default,and this circuit isn't gunna work that way.If you want to win,then you better have some form.So,I thought the droppers wouldn't win.I thought I had to beat the WEAVER,THE 2 horse,and the 5 horse.That turned out to be very possible,but she simply didn't rate the horse.It is infuriating,because I singled the winner of the 7th(with YCHASE DE CAT in the 6th,and had all in the last.) The only way to look at it positively is to remember she could of had a troubled trip 2nd(if rated.)Also,if a bomb won the last it could have paid 2-3k (instead of $800 for the p3.) I guess I was lucky to win the 7th with Smith's horse getting up.So,was lucky in one leg,and unlucky in the previous leg.Also,I failed to cap the last correctly.I could easily had the 6 horse and cashed with the back up all/10 /two horses in last leg - ticket.So,I see it as me blowing the last,and her blowing the 6th.Shouldn't have used the 8 horse in the last.Horses breaking their maiden going sprints,are not great plays stretching out against winners who have stretched out already.The winner of the last seemed to me like he had some bad habits in the stretch,and I thought he had every chance to get up with GOMEZ up last time.Gomez moved.I knew the weight break might help.I thought he had a shot.That's where I lost.I had a chance to overcome Chantal's decision,and win a p3,but used the wrong 2 horses in the last leg of the cover ticket. It's little like making a par in pro golf.They can make one bad shot,but the other shots on the hole have to be good ones,or they bogey.

[2Hot4TV]

His downfall started when he got into a pissing match with Ebanks because Ebanks wanted both Tyler Baze and Talamo. And this is when Tyler was getting hot again. Jealously is a bitch. I think it is Ebanks, but it might be Ron Anderson...

It also didn't help that Bejarano made the move there because he essentially took ALL of his mounts (Walsh and Frankel most notable)
If Joe hangs in there, stays the likeable kid he is and learns from the wealth of good riders around him he will go to the TOP with the agent he has now.
His agent is a Super agent with the right rider and Alex Solis isn't that rider anymore. Joe can slip right in.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Actually,I haven't liked the horses Talamo has been getting.I know he needs to win with marginal horses in order to get better mounts,but horses like Le Cirque are the types he often gets.That(LE CIRQUE) is a despicable individual to have to try to get up with,but he does need to start getting horses like that up.

[ArlJim78]

scuds, the horse you're obsessing on from the SA sixth yesterday was probably not going to win that race, REGARDLESS of the riding tactics.
To me that horse was clearly not quite up to the level of several of the others. Maybe coming from off the pace the horse would have been closer, but a winner? imo no way.

I'm not saying it wasn't a decent shot to take at the price, but you act once again as if the ride alone is to blame for your loss. In all honestly I feel that you should just take most of the blame yourself for making the wrong play. Its okay to say that because everyone is wrong about something in this game the majority of the time.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

scuds, the horse you're obsessing on from the SA sixth yesterday was probably not going to win that race, REGARDLESS of the riding tactics.
To me that horse was clearly not quite up to the level of several of the others. Maybe coming from off the pace the horse would have been closer, but a winner? imo no way.

I'm not saying it wasn't a decent shot to take at the price, but you act once again as if the ride alone is to blame for your loss. In all honestly I feel that you should just take most of the blame yourself for making the wrong play. Its okay to say that because everyone is wrong about something in this game the majority of the time.

I ignore your stuff almost always.It's all the same type stuff.It's the contrarian high school teacher type stuff.Just like this time.I read it,but just ignore it,because I know the guy who wrote it is simply out to disagree with other players.Same as before,watch the horse's next race.Nobody knows for sure what would of happened if he got a rate or stalk trip.It's a bad post.I already said he may have lost with a troubled trip.I don't play crap for singles.Look at the next leg single.He scored at 10-1.They (the singles) usually are very live.

[ArlJim78]

I ignore your stuff almost always.It's all the same type stuff.It's the contrarian high school teacher type stuff.Just like this time.I read it,but just ignore it,because I know the guy who wrote it is simply out to disagree with other players.Same as before,watch the horse's next race.Nobody knows for sure what would of happened if he got a rate or stalk trip.It's a bad post.I already said he may have lost with a troubled trip.I don't play crap for singles.Look at the next leg single.He scored at 10-1.They (the singles) usually are very live.
well at least you have an open mind.:rolleyes:
since when is disagreeing with other players not part of this game?

my posts are all the same type of stuff? umm, you might want to look in the mirror fellow. your rants on conspiracies, bad rides, and cheating trainers are so tiresome and predictably lame.

contrarian high school teacher stuff? whatever. the very act of trying to find value is a contrarian type of thinking.

[2Hot4TV]

there was nothing wrong with the ride, his rally fell a short by a nose while the other horse was very game to the wire. Talamo gave it a good effort.
I finally watched the race and I have to agree with Jim.

Christ, the winner saved all the ground and set fractions of 24/48/113/137 and Talamo's horse rated 8 lenghts off that pace and missed by a nose.

Where did he stiff you?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

well at least you have an open mind.:rolleyes:
since when is disagreeing with other players not part of this game?

my posts are all the same type of stuff? umm, you might want to look in the mirror fellow. your rants on conspiracies, bad rides, and cheating trainers are so tiresome and predictably lame.

contrarian high school teacher stuff? whatever. the very act of trying to find value is a contrarian type of thinking.

You're predictably contrarian.The only thing unusual about your post about YMUSTICAHASETHECAT is that you didn't say the winner was your top choice in the race.That would be your normal way.I want to know something.You are so sure that none of these horses ever get bad rides.I got to know something.

Anita 12-30-07 RACE 7 .....Yasinisi......Close to the wire,..Doesn't Solis just hand 3rd place in a stakes to Bejarano?

[pgardn]

A bad ride and a stiff are very different
things. I thought stiff meant intent to hold
a horse back from winning or intentionally
producing a poor performance from a horse.

How the heck do you get that out of that ride.
You can call it whatever, but a stiff?
If you play this game and can clearly call that
a stiff you dont have the temprament to handle
all the crap that can happen.

[ArlJim78]

I finally watched the race and I have to agree with Jim.

Christ, the winner saved all the ground and set fractions of 24/48/113/137 and Talamo's horse rated 8 lenghts off that pace and missed by a nose.

Where did he stiff you?
of course not, the truth is there was no stiff. no rational asessment of that ride would conclude that anything was amiss. he basically rode a winning race, its just that the winner had something left late.

[The Bid]

2hot4tv these guys are talking about a different race.

As far as your comment goes I dont think you realize the race was 1 1/4. You dont think those are honest fractions going 1 1/4 miles.

Again, the ride was absolutely criminal. It was a stiff job, a butcher job, a bad ride, its whatever you want to call it. Its the best horse getting beat when hes rolling by at the 16th pole with all the momentum. Its Talamoses taking a visable measure to his inside and not finishing his ride, Talamoses being a fool.

I call it a stiff job because the best horse was beaten and never should have been. Its stiffing the public, the trainer, the owner, its brutal. There is no excuse for a ride like that and he should be fined, and given days.

[GPK]

2hot4tv these guys are talking about a different race.

As far as your comment goes I dont think you realize the race was 1 1/4. You dont think those are honest fractions going 1 1/4 miles.

Again, the ride was absolutely criminal. It was a stiff job, a butcher job, a bad ride, its whatever you want to call it. Its the best horse getting beat when hes rolling by at the 16th pole with all the momentum. Its Talamoses taking a visable measure to his inside and not finishing his ride, Talamoses being a fool.

I call it a stiff job because the best horse was beaten and never should have been. Its stiffing the public, the trainer, the owner, its brutal. There is no excuse for a ride like that and he should be fined, and given days.


I have no dog in this fight, but after having watched the replay a few times now...that statement in bold hits the nail on the head. In no way, shape or form did Joe T finish riding the horse to the wire.

[The Bid]

No, he didnt finish his ride, he didnt think about finishing his ride. He absolutely stopped on the horse once he rolled up with all the momentum. Not passing in that situation is inexcusable

[pgardn]

No, he didnt finish his ride, he didnt think about finishing his ride. He absolutely stopped on the horse once he rolled up with all the momentum. Not passing in that situation is inexcusable

I see what you guys are saying.
But then you have posters like
fat man getting pissed because
a horse is getting a beatn throwing
the horse out of contention.

So I get a bit confused when people gripe
that a horse was doing well until the jockey
starting overriding a horse. And then we get
this where a jock figures (I guess) that he is
getting everything out of a horse. So now the
jock is not finishing the ride.

Personally Ive got beaten by much worse than
that ride. Of course I play mostly at a pretty crappy track
so I have come to accept it.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I think Gomez and Bejarano would of won with Le Cirque,but not sure any of the other riders would have (at Anita.)The horse is pretty despicable.

[GPK]

I see what you guys are saying.
But then you have posters like
fat man getting pissed because
a horse is getting a beatn throwing
the horse out of contention.

So I get a bit confused when people gripe
that a horse was doing well until the jockey
starting overriding a horse. And then we get
this where a jock figures (I guess) that he is
getting everything out of a horse. So now the
jock is not finishing the ride.

Personally Ive got beaten by much worse than
that ride. Of course I play mostly at a pretty crappy track
so I have come to accept it.


Pat...what I see him doing has nothing to do with beating the horse. IMO Joe T clearly stops shaking the reigns on the horse...like he quits asking the horse for run. May not look like much at first, but I think it is enough of a difference between winning and losing. I think I know Bid well enough that if he felt Joe T had ridden the horse out and still got beat, he would have never started this thread to begin with. All I ever ask for in a race is a fair chance...I don't think this horse was given a fair chance. He headed the other horse, was rolling by the other horse and Joe T quit asking after that. Who knows if he thought he was gonna keep cruising by the horse, or what, but he clearly made a mistake.

[The Bid]

I would say 99 percent of the colony would have won on that horse. Talamoses is probably the only one dumb enough to try to measure a neck victory.

Hes a pretty honest horse Scuds, and he was the best horse in that race. Its just ashame that these guys arent held accountable when they sh it the bed like that

[pgardn]

I would say 99 percent of the colony would have won on that horse. Talamoses is probably the only one dumb enough to try to measure a neck victory.

Hes a pretty honest horse Scuds, and he was the best horse in that race. Its just ashame that these guys arent held accountable when they sh it the bed like that

If the connections of this horse feel like you do
you dont think the jock will be held accountable?
You think the owner and trainer are saying tough
loss Joe, if they feel like you do?
That was a damn close race.

[ArlJim78]

You're predictably contrarian.The only thing unusual about your post about YMUSTICAHASETHECAT is that you didn't say the winner was your top choice in the race.That would be your normal way.I want to know something.You are so sure that none of these horses ever get bad rides.I got to know something.

Anita 12-30-07 RACE 7 .....Yasinisi......Close to the wire,..Doesn't Solis just hand 3rd place in a stakes to Bejarano?
I didn't mention anything about my choice because first of all, i didn't play that day, so I didn't wager, and secondly that wasn't the point. I saw your post touting the horse, looked at the field and yes looked at my ratings, and thought to myself that this horse was going to have trouble. the field was competitive and deep relatively speaking for that horse. I only commented when I saw that your only take on the result was to bash the ride.
by the way, where did I ever say that riders never give bad rides? of course they do but its an overrated angle imo, and I see many times when people are quick to point out microscopic issues about a ride when the ride wouldn't have made much difference which I feel is the case here.

For the record while I didn't play the race my ratings had it like this;
1 Forest Danz, 2 Specialist Morgen, 3 Iza General, 4 Indian Weaver, 5 Jacobs Profit, 6 I'll Prey for You, 7 Ymustichasethecat, 8 A Stare and me, 9 Escalante. The public had it about the same way, but it was wrong nonetheless having to go six deep to find the winner.

looking at bris speed figures, the winner of that race was given a 90. The winner had a lifetime best number of 102.

on the other hand, ymustichasethecat's lifetime best is only 89. the previous win earned him an 86 and yesterday he earned an 85 meaning that although the pace was distributed a little differently, the end result was right in line with the previous effort. It would have taken a lifetime best from him to have scored yesterday.

to me its illogical to skip over facts like this and instead come up with such insightful comments as "Chantal!!! ugghh".

[pgardn]

Just watched it again.
Not obssessed, just trying to understand
as I like reading diff. opinions on these types
of events.

If that was intentional, Talamo is really
horrible because he came way too close to winning.
He is really a bad jock if he was truly trying to
stiff the horse, horrible judgement...

[ArlJim78]

Pat...what I see him doing has nothing to do with beating the horse. IMO Joe T clearly stops shaking the reigns on the horse...like he quits asking the horse for run. May not look like much at first, but I think it is enough of a difference between winning and losing. I think I know Bid well enough that if he felt Joe T had ridden the horse out and still got beat, he would have never started this thread to begin with. All I ever ask for in a race is a fair chance...I don't think this horse was given a fair chance. He headed the other horse, was rolling by the other horse and Joe T quit asking after that. Who knows if he thought he was gonna keep cruising by the horse, or what, but he clearly made a mistake.
but the original assertion here wasn't that it was a mistake. It was that it was a criminal "stiff" job and he should get time and be fined which is quite simply laughable.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I would say 99 percent of the colony would have won on that horse. Talamoses is probably the only one dumb enough to try to measure a neck victory.

Hes a pretty honest horse Scuds, and he was the best horse in that race. Its just ashame that these guys arent held accountable when they sh it the bed like that

When I say despicable,I mean her will to win.She has made what? 90k or so? She is a decent horse,but not great at closing the deal.That's why I am not so sure anybody but Gomez and Bejarano would have won with her.Those 2 riders can really finish a race,and that's what we are talking about here.

[GPK]

but the original assertion here wasn't that it was a mistake. It was that it was a criminal "stiff" job and he should get time and be fined which is quite simply laughable.


Point taken...

But I can't honestly sit here and say that had I been in Bid's shoes, that I wouldn't have made the same type of post. Im just as guilty, as many of us are, about venting when it comes to things of that nature. Had I bet on that horse on Sunday...I most likely would have beat Bid to the punch and posted something very similar.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I didn't mention anything about my choice because first of all, i didn't play that day, so I didn't wager, and secondly that wasn't the point. I saw your post touting the horse, looked at the field and yes looked at my ratings, and thought to myself that this horse was going to have trouble. the field was competitive and deep relatively speaking for that horse. I only commented when I saw that your only take on the result was to bash the ride.
by the way, where did I ever say that riders never give bad rides? of course they do but its an overrated angle imo, and I see many times when people are quick to point out microscopic issues about a ride when the ride wouldn't have made much difference which I feel is the case here.

For the record while I didn't play the race my ratings had it like this;
1 Forest Danz, 2 Specialist Morgen, 3 Iza General, 4 Indian Weaver, 5 Jacobs Profit, 6 I'll Prey for You, 7 Ymustichasethecat, 8 A Stare and me, 9 Escalante. The public had it about the same way, but it was wrong nonetheless having to go six deep to find the winner.

looking at bris speed figures, the winner of that race was given a 90. The winner had a lifetime best number of 102.

on the other hand, ymustichasethecat's lifetime best is only 89. the previous win earned him an 86 and yesterday he earned an 85 meaning that although the pace was distributed a little differently, the end result was right in line with the previous effort. It would have taken a lifetime best from him to have scored yesterday.

to me its illogical to skip over facts like this and instead come up with such insightful comments as "Chantal!!! ugghh".

I think it's illogical to ignore the horse's style,and duel on the lead(he has failed 3 times, atleast, with this method.) The horse can win at this same level in a couple weeks.Makes no sense to talk about his chances yesterday,because she put him in a position he doesn't like (dueling.)I flatly disagree with anybody who ignores a horse's style ,and thinks they are gunna run some figure no matter where they are placed in a race.I guess if we were all such believers in figures then we would have gone with the 1st 2 horses you had rated.They are out of form,but hey,they got hi figures.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Point taken...

But I can't honestly sit here and say that had I been in Bid's shoes, that I wouldn't have made the same type of post. Im just as guilty, as many of us are, about venting when it comes to things of that nature. Had I bet on that horse on Sunday...I most likely would have beat Bid to the punch and posted something very similar.

You need really good rides to win most of these races.I wish it wasn't true,but it is.Most of these races are very competitive situations,and you can not win without a very good ride.

[The Bid]

Jim, whats really laughable is your inability to recognize what a poor ride that was. Take it for what it was, a horribly disgraceful finish, or lack thereof, a misjudged wire, a misjudged measure, and a total display of incompetence. In this case Talamoses incompetence as a rider is equal to your incompetence to understand what really happened.

[ArlJim78]

I think it's illogical to ignore the horse's style,and duel on the lead(he has failed 3 times, atleast, with this method.) The horse can win at this same level in a couple weeks.Makes no sense to talk about his chances yesterday,because she put him in a position he doesn't like (dueling.)I flatly disagree with anybody who ignores a horse's style ,and thinks they are gunna run some figure no matter where they are placed in a race.I guess if we were all such believers in figures then we would have gone with the 1st 2 horses you had rated.They are out of form,but hey,they got hi figures.
wouldn't have been any worse off than your in-form horse, in fact my top horse beat your touted inform selection. should you really be talking smack when your horse ran out?

the horses style can mean a lot, but it doesn't mean that the horse will win against just anyone.

Previously at HW this horse raced with the same kind of pace style as yesterday and performed well albeit at a lower class rating. the races at Hollywood were fast paced and the horse held up well. the horse will come back with some class relief and will be okay.
I'm done, as this is pointless.

[ArlJim78]

Jim, whats really laughable is your inability to recognize what a poor ride that was. Take it for what it was, a horribly disgraceful finish, or lack thereof, a misjudged wire, a misjudged measure, and a total display of incompetence. In this case Talamoses incompetence as a rider is equal to your incompetence to understand what really happened.
it was a close finish, thats all. you overestimate what effect the rider can have on the outcome in the final half second of a race, and you let your annoyance with losing clould your opinions. you way over reacted.
its a badge of honor to know that you feel I'm incompetent. I'd be concerned if I knew you felt otherwise.

[The Bid]

No thats not all. That may be all you see because you dont know what you are looking at.

He rode the horse home like he was going to win by 3, instead he lost by 3 inches. Had he ridden the horse through the wire he would have won by a neck. He was wrapped up at the 16th pole, as soon as he drew onto even terms. The ride he gave rivals Dedumbeaux standing up at the 16th pole at Keeneland