CRIST: Changes dilute Cup's appeal

[Kasept]

No reason for me to finish the column I started about the ridiculous Cup changes, as I wouldn't have gotten it more right than Crist or said it as well:

Changes dilute Cup's appeal (DRF sub. req'd):
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=92640

The announcement last Tuesday that the six newer and eight older Cup races will henceforth be jumbled together and then separated along gender lines seems to have bewildered or offended every segment of the sport's fan base. Coming on the heels of the indefensible decision to run the Cup at Santa Anita in both 2008 and 2009 - over a racing surface that has yet to be chosen, installed, or tested - it has created the impression that the nominal stewards of the Breeders' Cup have either lost their collective minds or surrendered them to new-age marketing gurus with a spotty regard for the event's history and appeal...

[Cannon Shell]

I saw this coming with the "Win and your in " nonsense which is strictly a PR campaign. Though I still have no problem with the addition of races (though the marathon idea is questionable), the separation by sex/days and renaming the Distaff seems to make no sense. It as if they are trying to "trick" people into watching/attending. Just as the Sunshine Millions is a contrived "rivalry" between CA and FL, this is like a madeup gimmick that just has no real purpose.

[31lengths]

I saw this coming with the "Win and your in " nonsense which is strictly a PR campaign. Though I still have no problem with the addition of races (though the marathon idea is questionable), the separation by sex/days and renaming the Distaff seems to make no sense. It as if they are trying to "trick" people into watching/attending. Just as the Sunshine Millions is a contrived "rivalry" between CA and FL, this is like a madeup gimmick that just has no real purpose.


I doubt that it is aimed at established fans like us.
I do believe that it is 100% a gimmick to attract new fans (somehow) .
Like they're "spicing" it up somehow....

[AeWingnut]

I doubt that it is aimed at established fans like us.
I do believe that it is 100% a gimmick to attract new fans (somehow) .
Like they're "spicing" it up somehow....

aim high shoot low

are these mythical new fans going to take a day off to experience their first race?

[Holland Hacker]

Well I WAS considering making the transcontinental trip from NJ to Cali for the '08 Breeders Cup but now I think I'll take a pass. It is absurd that the BC Limited actually thinks this is a "good" idea.

[Cannon Shell]

Racing always misses the boat with their marketing so why would they get it right this time? They simply seem to forget that most racing fans are smarter than the average joe (KRIM as a prime example) especially compared to the average NASCAR fan (sorry cajun) yet they continue to try to dumbdown the game for mass appeal. Racing is complicated and a good part of the allure is the challenge of trying to figure it out. Rather than attempting to identify that type of potential customer (many who would be older than the demographic that they lust after) they give us a supposed championship day disguised as Ladies Night as though it were a happy hour promotion. As opposed to using modern technology like HDtv, they give away t shirts, clocks and waste paper baskets. Rather than ask people who are fans what they think or want, they piss away money listening to some junior exec at a second tier marketing agency.

[Danzig]

I doubt that it is aimed at established fans like us.
I do believe that it is 100% a gimmick to attract new fans (somehow) .
Like they're "spicing" it up somehow....

they want to attract new...but you'd think they'd care about keeping the ones they've already got. who better than a fan to get others to go to the track? my husband is a casual fan now(he said head bob the other day, i almost fell off the couch--insert joke HERE) and my daughter is hooked for life, my youngest is very interested, and my oldest wants to know if kickin will be in/near norfolk so he can go see her run.. they didn't get that way because some suit added races to the bc schedule.

[King Glorious]

Maybe it's just me but I don't see a single problem with this. We as racing fans were going to watch the races on Friday and Saturday no matter which races were on which days anyway. I see nothing wrong with trying to market things in a different way. Say for example Rags to Riches had finished the year out and ran in the BC but not in the Classic. In all of their marketing and advertising, the BC could tell fans to come out to see all three TC race winners.....only Rags would be in a different race and that race would be overshadowed by the Classic, the race for HOY. Rags would have been reduced to second fiddle. By having her run on the first day, they can basically showcase her. I don't see anything wrong with that. What's so wrong with trying to market two days instead of just one?

[King Glorious]

they want to attract new...but you'd think they'd care about keeping the ones they've already got. who better than a fan to get others to go to the track? my husband is a casual fan now(he said head bob the other day, i almost fell off the couch--insert joke HERE) and my daughter is hooked for life, my youngest is very interested, and my oldest wants to know if kickin will be in/near norfolk so he can go see her run.. they didn't get that way because some suit added races to the bc schedule.

None of us fans are going to stop watching the sport because they added some races and moved them around a little bit. How are they losing fans by adding more races? Not a single person that I know either in real life or on these racing forums said "I'm not going to watch the BC now since they added extra races." And if Rags to Riches runs this year and she's in the Distaff, or whatever they want to call it, on Friday, I really doubt anyone is going to not watch that race because it's on Friday and not on Saturday.

[Danzig]

a lot of folks work on fridays. i look forward to the bc, and treat it as a rare afternoon to watch race after race of what's supposed to be the best of the best.
so, what, now i go home and fast forward thru a bunch of filler to get to post time for those races, so i can hurry and watch a days races from friday before bed time?
also, a lot of fans enjoyed seeing that distaff..oh, excuse me, filly and mare classic-why shouldn't it be on the big day? why is it relegated to friday? to an afterthought? or in this case, a prelude to the big day.

so now those people buying those expensive tix to the saturday races, won't be getting what they used to get. i bet they mind!

[GBBob]

aim high shoot low

are these mythical new fans going to take a day off to experience their first race?

There can only be one reason why it's Fri-sat and not Sat-Sun and that's ESPN. You know ESPN isn't going to sacrifice their NFL primtetime pre-game and everything else they do to show horse racing. I bet the BC would love to do Sat-Sun if allowed to.

And considering everything else they (BC) have done, that's the least of the worries I think.

[Danzig]

None of us fans are going to stop watching the sport because they added some races and moved them around a little bit. How are they losing fans by adding more races? Not a single person that I know either in real life or on these racing forums said "I'm not going to watch the BC now since they added extra races." And if Rags to Riches runs this year and she's in the Distaff, or whatever they want to call it, on Friday, I really doubt anyone is going to not watch that race because it's on Friday and not on Saturday.

i didn't see any of the friday races last fall. i was at work, and didn't bother to dvr them. for what? the good stuff was on saturday.

[King Glorious]

There can only be one reason why it's Fri-sat and not Sat-Sun and that's ESPN. You know ESPN isn't going to sacrifice their NFL primtetime pre-game and everything else they do to show horse racing. I bet the BC would love to do Sat-Sun if allowed to.

And considering everything else they (BC) have done, that's the least of the worries I think.

And why should ESPN want to bump NFL for horse racing? Have you seen the ratings for horse racing over the years? They can't even pull a bigger audience than the Kenosha County Tractor Pulling Championships. The damn National Spelling Bee probably gets higher ratings. Going to Sunday would KILL the BC. Believe that.

[Cannon Shell]

so now those people buying those expensive tix to the saturday races, won't be getting what they used to get. i bet they mind!
I'm guessing that like the rest of sports that tickets will only be sold for both events, not individually.

[GBBob]

And why should ESPN want to bump NFL for horse racing? Have you seen the ratings for horse racing over the years? They can't even pull a bigger audience than the Kenosha County Tractor Pulling Championships. The damn National Spelling Bee probably gets higher ratings. Going to Sunday would KILL the BC. Believe that.

Kenosha County? Impressive local knowledge

I'm still not sure a Sunday prime time, even against the NFL wouldn't do better numbers than a Friday matinee like we have now.

[Danzig]

wouldn't surprise me.
a lot of colleges now require season ticket buyers to make a 'donation' to the booster club as well...

i wouldn't want friday tix. that would be when i was travelling to the track....but yeah, no doubt that's what they'll do. twie the fun at twice the price, yippeee.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

And why should ESPN want to bump NFL for horse racing? Have you seen the ratings for horse racing over the years? They can't even pull a bigger audience than the Kenosha County Tractor Pulling Championships. The damn National Spelling Bee probably gets higher ratings. Going to Sunday would KILL the BC. Believe that.
i dont agree at all.. save the travel day for on track people there would be no problem with sunday....

[King Glorious]

Kenosha County? Impressive local knowledge

I'm still not sure a Sunday prime time, even against the NFL wouldn't do better numbers than a Friday matinee like we have now.

It wouldn't even be close.

The fans that are racing fans that want to watch will still watch. That's not going to change. Hell, we watched Curlin run on a Thursday morning from Dubai. We'll watch some Friday races. I personally would rather have the day split up than have 14 races on one day with 30-45 minutes between races. I'd like them to go back to just the original seven but since that's not going to happen, I like Fri-Sat much better than Sat-Sun.

[Danzig]

It wouldn't even be close.

The fans that are racing fans that want to watch will still watch. That's not going to change. Hell, we watched Curlin run on a Thursday morning from Dubai. We'll watch some Friday races. I personally would rather have the day split up than have 14 races on one day with 30-45 minutes between races. I'd like them to go back to just the original seven but since that's not going to happen, I like Fri-Sat much better than Sat-Sun.

no, WE didn't. you did, others did, but as a collective, we didn't all watch him.


at least, i didn't. i was at work. don't you people work?!

[hurricanefrank]

I'd like them to go back to just the original seven but since that's not going to happen, I like Fri-Sat much better than Sat-Sun.

hear hear!

[Danzig]

hear hear!

he doesn't need encouragement!:D

[GBBob]

It wouldn't even be close.

The fans that are racing fans that want to watch will still watch. That's not going to change. Hell, we watched Curlin run on a Thursday morning from Dubai. We'll watch some Friday races. I personally would rather have the day split up than have 14 races on one day with 30-45 minutes between races. I'd like them to go back to just the original seven but since that's not going to happen, I like Fri-Sat much better than Sat-Sun.

I agree..horse people will watch whenever..that base is established whether it's Fri or Sunday..but you are looking at a much larger pool of neophytes on Sunday, that even with most watching the NFL, will be larger than on a Friday.

Look at it this way....Assume..say..2% of the non horse racing fan is going to tune in...Would you rather get that 2% from the available FRiday audience or the available Sunday audience?

[AeWingnut]

And why should ESPN want to bump NFL for horse racing? Have you seen the ratings for horse racing over the years? They can't even pull a bigger audience than the Kenosha County Tractor Pulling Championships. The damn National Spelling Bee probably gets higher ratings. Going to Sunday would KILL the BC. Believe that.


ok, TV ratings are not going to happen so why kiss ESPN butt

it's just another cable station

[AeWingnut]

Friday will have a WNBA feel about it

[King Glorious]

I agree..horse people will watch whenever..that base is established whether it's Fri or Sunday..but you are looking at a much larger pool of neophytes on Sunday, that even with most watching the NFL, will be larger than on a Friday.

Look at it this way....Assume..say..2% of the non horse racing fan is going to tune in...Would you rather get that 2% from the available FRiday audience or the available Sunday audience?

That may well be true but then the question is how much of the racing fan will be lost to the NFL. Also, the 2% of the available audience on Friday might actually be more than the 2% of the available audience on Sunday.

[Cannon Shell]

ESPN doesnt cover the NFL on Sundays from 1-7.

[GBBob]

That may well be true but then the question is how much of the racing fan will be lost to the NFL. Also, the 2% of the available audience on Friday might actually be more than the 2% of the available audience on Sunday.

I guess it's sad that we're debating about trying to attract maybe 2% of an audience.

The most obvious thing is that while the BC is trying so hard to appeal to a wider population, they are turning off their core customer.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

then they will disrupt it with a curling match....or god forbid - arena football

[GBBob]

ESPN doesnt cover the NFL on Sundays from 1-7.

I know..but they are still linked to that league very closely. If I were Oliver Stone, I would bet that the NFL even has final say on what they show during the Noon-6 period...

[Cannon Shell]

I understand about the people working but there is lots of advance time and if you are traveling to get there you would not be working on Friday anyway. Plus Saratoga, Keeneland and Del Mar do awfully well on weekdays. I am just disheartend by a supposed championship event being run by people who dont have any clue and ithe fact that they may make changes that make these seem pedestrian

[Linny]

Maybe it's just me but I don't see a single problem with this. We as racing fans were going to watch the races on Friday and Saturday no matter which races were on which days anyway. I see nothing wrong with trying to market things in a different way. Say for example Rags to Riches had finished the year out and ran in the BC but not in the Classic. In all of their marketing and advertising, the BC could tell fans to come out to see all three TC race winners.....only Rags would be in a different race and that race would be overshadowed by the Classic, the race for HOY. Rags would have been reduced to second fiddle. By having her run on the first day, they can basically showcase her. I don't see anything wrong with that. What's so wrong with trying to market two days instead of just one?

To me, having Rags race on Day 1 (in your scenario) is to make her "second fiddle." Sorry but the biggest race "the day before" doesn't stand equal to the Classic or anyhting on Saturday. The Personal Ensign is run on the Fri before the Travers, does anyone care?

[Cannon Shell]

then they will disrupt it with a curling match....or god forbid - arena football
Bowling...

[Cannon Shell]

To me, having Rags race on Day 1 (in your scenario) is to make her "second fiddle." Sorry but the biggest race "the day before" doesn't stand equal to the Classic or anyhting on Saturday. The Personal Ensign is run on the Fri before the Travers, does anyone care?
I hate to break it to everyone but Rags to Riches is not a 'crossover fan' attraction (not crossdressing). Her 15 minutes are up until she does something notble again.

[Linny]

If Rags had gone from the Oaks to the Ma Goose to the Coaching Club to the Alabama to the Beldame and the Distaff and won them all no one but us racing freaks would know her. She's famous for beating the boys. If she stays in the distaff, oops, Ladies division this season she'll be anonymous by October.

[Danzig]

I guess it's sad that we're debating about trying to attract maybe 2% of an audience.

The most obvious thing is that while the BC is trying so hard to appeal to a wider population, they are turning off their core customer.

for bc day for how many years now, they had some other races on the card before the bc races started. they should have just made a big day of it, and left it at that. if they wanted to add a race or two, and fill a ten race card, fine. but this two day, segregated by sex deal, is not going to help anything. where else does anything like this two day event happen? and work?

[King Glorious]

I hate to break it to everyone but Rags to Riches is not a 'crossover fan' attraction (not crossdressing). Her 15 minutes are up until she does something notble again.

They don't want to hear that. Don't let them know what the attendance figs were like for the Gazelle. They don't want to believe it. To them, she's the Messiah. Or something.

[Danzig]

If Rags had gone from the Oaks to the Ma Goose to the Coaching Club to the Alabama to the Beldame and the Distaff and won them all no one but us racing freaks would know her. She's famous for beating the boys. If she stays in the distaff, oops, Ladies division this season she'll be anonymous by October.

but it's us racing freaks who the powers that be should be taking care of.

take what works, make it better. quality, not quantity.

[Danzig]

They don't want to hear that. Don't let them know what the attendance figs were like for the Gazelle. They don't want to believe it. To them, she's the Messiah. Or something.

them who?? the them who think that a good race makes a good horse?:p

[Cannon Shell]

If Rags had gone from the Oaks to the Ma Goose to the Coaching Club to the Alabama to the Beldame and the Distaff and won them all no one but us racing freaks would know her. She's famous for beating the boys. If she stays in the distaff, oops, Ladies division this season she'll be anonymous by October.
especially if she runs on Friday during rush hour

[King Glorious]

but it's us racing freaks who the powers that be should be taking care of.

take what works, make it better. quality, not quantity.

Are you going to stop watching the Saturday races because they have some races on Friday? Do you know anyone that stopped watching the Saturday races because they added new races and a new day? Not asking if you watched the Friday races but did you stop watching the Saturday ones?

[Cannon Shell]

for bc day for how many years now, they had some other races on the card before the bc races started. they should have just made a big day of it, and left it at that. if they wanted to add a race or two, and fill a ten race card, fine. but this two day, segregated by sex deal, is not going to help anything. where else does anything like this two day event happen? and work?
Golf

[Danzig]

Are you going to stop watching the Saturday races because they have some races on Friday? Do you know anyone that stopped watching the Saturday races because they added new races and a new day? Not asking if you watched the Friday races but did you stop watching the Saturday ones?

i had them on, yes. but i would prefer that i could see them all that day. how would you like it if the first half of the super bowl was on a friday during working hours?

[King Glorious]

Golf

Tennis. The women's NCAA basketball tournament.

[Danzig]

Golf

but do they have half the players play on friday, and then tiger and a few come out on sunday and show off?

[King Glorious]

i had them on, yes. but i would prefer that i could see them all that day. how would you like it if the first half of the super bowl was on a friday during working hours?

Yes, I see how this analogy is the same.

[GBBob]

i had them on, yes. but i would prefer that i could see them all that day. how would you like it if the first half of the super bowl was on a friday during working hours?

the NCAA has managed to string out what used to be one day's worth of games over 9 days. It could be worse

[Danzig]

Tennis. The women's NCAA basketball tournament.
tennis finals generally fall on saturday and then sunday, i know as i used to watch.
as for the ncaa women, haven't a clue. i don't even watch mens b'ball....

[Danzig]

the NCAA has managed to string out what used to be one day's worth of games over 9 days. It could be worse
but it could be better.

[Danzig]

the NCAA has managed to string out what used to be one day's worth of games over 9 days. It could be worse

but by the same token, those games are usually played during prime time, aren't they? not 1-5 on a weekday afternoon...at least once you get down to the sweet 16, right?

[Danzig]

Tennis. The women's NCAA basketball tournament.


and besides, i'd hate to see the distaff division end up as ignored as womens basketball!!

[XIIPointStables]

How can anyone really defend this obscene move by the powers that be at the BC?

The word that keeps coming to mind is deflating - It's deflating to me as a race fan that the people that run what was one of the great days in the sport think this is a smart move.

[Cannon Shell]

Personally I have no problem with Friday races though i do understand the people that disagree. I have seen Oaks day turn from a big day to a huge event so Friday events are not impossible. i dont like the shuffling of the races though. I was in favor of adding races but I think they should remain secondary until they have a little history behind them and 'earn' thier way onto the big day. You cant possibly hope to make Friday as big as Sat and as such the traditional races should have been kept intact with Friday being a preview of sorts, especially since many people who travel are already in town. The truth I'm afraid is that this will give them an excuse to raise prices on friday to the level of the Saturday prices which cuts into many peoples budgets. One tip off that the powers that be in racing dont care about current customers is the absense of effort to repeal the unfair withholding rules. Until recently I had never heard a racetrack exec even acknowledge this and it hurts their bottomline too.

[GBBob]

but by the same token, those games are usually played during prime time, aren't they? not 1-5 on a weekday afternoon...at least once you get down to the sweet 16, right?

I was thinking about New Year's Day Bowl games

but i agree with your other post

[Danzig]

Personally I have no problem with Friday races though i do understand the people that disagree. I have seen Oaks day turn from a big day to a huge event so Friday events are not impossible. i dont like the shuffling of the races though. I was in favor of adding races but I think they should remain secondary until they have a little history behind them and 'earn' thier way onto the big day. You cant possibly hope to make Friday as big as Sat and as such the traditional races should have been kept intact with Friday being a preview of sorts, especially since many people who travel are already in town. The truth I'm afraid is that this will give them an excuse to raise prices on friday to the level of the Saturday prices which cuts into many peoples budgets. One tip off that the powers that be in racing dont care about current customers is the absense of effort to repeal the unfair withholding rules. Until recently I had never heard a racetrack exec even acknowledge this and it hurts their bottomline too.

i think it's the shuffling of the races, far more than just having added races, that has me the most aggravated. like you said, no history behind some of the races. and why should races that have achieved and DESERVE gr 1 status and have much to do (altho sometimes too much) with the awarding of year-end honors be relegated to being nothing more than a life preserver for races that really have nothing to do with any type of division??
they're trying to surround pseudo championship races with races with history behind them, to somehow grant those newbies some type of legitimacy.

[King Glorious]

Personally I have no problem with Friday races though i do understand the people that disagree. I have seen Oaks day turn from a big day to a huge event so Friday events are not impossible. i dont like the shuffling of the races though. I was in favor of adding races but I think they should remain secondary until they have a little history behind them and 'earn' thier way onto the big day. You cant possibly hope to make Friday as big as Sat and as such the traditional races should have been kept intact with Friday being a preview of sorts, especially since many people who travel are already in town. The truth I'm afraid is that this will give them an excuse to raise prices on friday to the level of the Saturday prices which cuts into many peoples budgets. One tip off that the powers that be in racing dont care about current customers is the absense of effort to repeal the unfair withholding rules. Until recently I had never heard a racetrack exec even acknowledge this and it hurts their bottomline too.

I can understand that. I would think that the feeling behind this is maybe the same as when networks put new shows on the air right after some established hits, in hopes that the audience that watched the hit might stick around and watch the new show. For that reason, I don't think it's that bad an idea. Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that if there was a day with the Dirt Marathon, the F/M Sprint, the Juvenile Turf Fillies and the other new races only, I'd be less likely tune in and watch them alone than I would be if they were on the same card with the Distaff and the F/M Turf.

[Cannon Shell]

I can understand that. I would think that the feeling behind this is maybe the same as when networks put new shows on the air right after some established hits, in hopes that the audience that watched the hit might stick around and watch the new show. For that reason, I don't think it's that bad an idea. Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that if there was a day with the Dirt Marathon, the F/M Sprint, the Juvenile Turf Fillies and the other new races only, I'd be less likely tune in and watch them alone than I would be if they were on the same card with the Distaff and the F/M Turf.
Hey we watch the garbage that some tracks put out everyday so it is not like we wont watch them anyway. But in keeping friday as a BC expansion day with prices half price with some huge pool pick 6 or some way that bettors are rewarded for playing or going may be easier for people that care to swallow.

[Pedigree Ann]

then they will disrupt it with a curling match....or god forbid - arena football

Hey, curling is a great sport. Lots of finesse and mind games involved. And good players can come in all shapes and sizes. Like snooker (which gets wall-to-wall afternoon coverage on the BBC). Moreover, like horse racing, it is rooted in history, unlike the bastardization of a great outdoor game like football. (Okay, I am from Minnesota so sports on ice have a special appeal. AND we spent a sabbatical year in Canada where curling is second only to ice hockey among winter sports. For myself, they could lose boxing forever off TV and I would be happy. It is a disgusting excuse for a sport, IMHO. But my dad likes it!)

[Kasept]

Have to admit that the 10 years living in Canada made me a Curling fan as well..

[blackthroatedwind]

If Rags had gone from the Oaks to the Ma Goose to the Coaching Club to the Alabama to the Beldame and the Distaff and won them all no one but us racing freaks would know her. She's famous for beating the boys. If she stays in the distaff, oops, Ladies division this season she'll be anonymous by October.

Very true.....but I would add that racing her on the " real " BC card would keep her in the headlines, so to speak.

The other problem, that I'm not sure has been mentioned so far, is that instead of the Saturday races being a complete " championship day ", they will be watered down to include the, perhaps fun, but irrelevent BC Turf Sprint, BC Juvenile Turf and BC Marathon. These races were conceived as, essentially, lead-ins to the big day, and now they are part of the main event at the exclusion of others.

As has been well stated here by Chuck, the BC is furthering a mistake that racetracks in general make, in a misguided attempt to attract a new audience that may or may not truly exist, they have spurned the needs and desires of their core and dedicated customers. We need to take care of these people a whole lot better before we should be worried about adding to their numbers.

[Kasept]

As has been well stated here by Chuck, the BC is furthering a mistake that racetracks in general make, in a misguided attempt to attract a new audience that may or may not truly exist, they have spurned the needs and desires of their core and dedicated customers. We need to take care of these people a whole lot better before we should be worried about adding to their numbers.

You can literally hear the conversation in the BCL meeting when, OR EVEN IF, the question came up...

"The existing fans? Are you kidding? They'll watch and bet whenever and wherever we put it and whatever we call it..."

[ddthetide]

if they feel a need to split the event, why not make a juvenile day and make all those races on friday or make it a saturday- sunday event.
as it stands now instead of Ladies Day call it BC Oaks Day.

[blackthroatedwind]

if they feel a need to split the event, why make a juvenile day and make all those races on friday or make it a saturday- sunday event.
as it stands now instead of Ladies Day call it BC Oaks Day.

I essentially agree. Add the Turf Sprint and Marathon to bookend the card and you have a decent Pick-6 of somewhat related races headlined by two big events.

Far too intelligent a concept.

[Payson Dave]

A couple of random thoughts on the subject....
Handle drives the game..participation of the fan base largely drives the handle.
Fan base falls into several categories... Hardcore, casual, newbie.
Newbies evolve to become Casuals...Casuals evolve to become Hardcore
Increasing the pool of Newbies and expediting the fan evolution process may well be keys to the long term survival of the sport. IMHO promotion, education, and incentive are keys to both bringing in more newbies and expediting fanbase evolution.
Kentucky Oaks day has become a hugh event in Louisville and to some extent with the hardcore fans of the sport...it is not that big with the non-Louisville casual fans of the sport.
Newbies are generally created by attending live racing and to a lesser extent by media coverage of the sport... in either case it is the casual and/or hardcore fan that frequently gets the newbie initially involved.
The Breeders Cup Friday card is not likely to add many new fans to the game...the on track attendance at the host track may improve via more of the Saturday crowd coming out a day earlier,but to a large extent that was happening anyway.
Any increase in Friday handle at non-host track venues will not likely be coming from new fans.

[AeWingnut]

They don't want to hear that. Don't let them know what the attendance figs were like for the Gazelle. They don't want to believe it. To them, she's the Messiah. Or something.

I hope not but...........................
I don't think the Messiah, Rags to Riches will come again.
I think she is done.

More is sometimes less
and the new format is just greed

[Linny]

The newbie to casual to hardcore description is correct but remember, only a very few ever become hardcore. Drive away 2 or 3 of them and 1000 newbies doesn't make up for it.

I also am not sure how placing a bunch of (supposedly) important events on a weekday will draw NEW fans. Several people who post here (presumed hardcore fans/players) have said that they wouldn't bother with Friday. If that's the case, what the devil makes BC think that some receptionist from Pasadena with no connection to racing will skip work on Fri to go to the track???!!!

Places like Louisville, Lexington, Saratoga and DelMar have sufficient casual fans and locals who want to see and be seen at the big events to fill the stands. They have tradition and location in their favor. I grew up in Albany and Saratoga has been part of my conciouness ALL MY LIFE. I'm sure kids in Lexington feel the same about Keeneland. With the BC being (supposedly) a moving event, how does one establish the tradition? Places like I mentioned rely on local tradition, parents taking kids to the the races. Kids choosing to continue to attend, bringing their kids someday.

[citycat]

I am most disappointed with the renaming of the Distaff. I admit to being a big fan of Personal Ensign. I think most would agree that her race in the Distaff is one of the best moments in horse racing history. To have that race renamed as the Ladies Classic just doesnt seem right to me. As many have already posted I think they again miss the boat on the intelligence of the racing fan. Ladies Classic is geared more towards the person (not generally the racing fan). I guess the word Distaff was too difficult for the mass population.

[justindew]

You can literally hear the conversation in the BCL meeting when, OR EVEN IF, the question came up...

"The existing fans? Are you kidding? They'll watch and bet whenever and wherever we put it and whatever we call it..."

But if they said that, they're correct.

[King Glorious]

But if they said that, they're correct.

They'd be 100% correct. Look at Kentucky Oaks day. Sure, there are probably better ideas that they can come up with and hopefully, they will continue to be open to tinkering with it to find what is the absolute best situation. But these changes aren't going to have any negative impact on the fans that watch the races at all. None.

[blackthroatedwind]

They'd be 100% correct. Look at Kentucky Oaks day. Sure, there are probably better ideas that they can come up with and hopefully, they will continue to be open to tinkering with it to find what is the absolute best situation. But these changes aren't going to have any negative impact on the fans that watch the races at all. None.


That's just so wrong that it's almost depressing.

There will be many people who don't see the Friday races that will be denied seeing the races decided Saturday that belong as part of the marquis event. Instead they will see inconsequential filler.

Some of us " fans " aren't enamoured with turf sprints....now we are forced to deal with one if we want to play Pick-4s on Saturday ( involving other true championship races ). I know this fan won't be playing.

[King Glorious]

Why does the Kentucky Oaks work on Friday but people think that the audience for the Friday BC races won't?

[blackthroatedwind]

The Kentucky Oaks Day is basically a holiday in Louisville. Do you think Pasadena is planning a similar situation?

The Kentucky Oaks is big in Louisville, and it is part of the one race that captures the attention of non-racing fans, and yet it's supporting races are still probably missed by the vast majority of racing fans.

[sumitas]

Personally I have no problem with Friday races though i do understand the people that disagree. I have seen Oaks day turn from a big day to a huge event so Friday events are not impossible. i dont like the shuffling of the races though. I was in favor of adding races but I think they should remain secondary until they have a little history behind them and 'earn' thier way onto the big day. You cant possibly hope to make Friday as big as Sat and as such the traditional races should have been kept intact with Friday being a preview of sorts, especially since many people who travel are already in town. The truth I'm afraid is that this will give them an excuse to raise prices on friday to the level of the Saturday prices which cuts into many peoples budgets. One tip off that the powers that be in racing dont care about current customers is the absense of effort to repeal the unfair withholding rules. Until recently I had never heard a racetrack exec even acknowledge this and it hurts their bottomline too.

I agree with maintaining a traditional Saturday lineup. Friday should be for the newbies. Hey, some people work Saturdays too. Not everybody works Mon-Fri. So the Friday makes sense to me for the newer races only.

[Payson Dave]

I use the term "fan" loosely...perhaps "wagering participant" is more appropo...

[justindew]

The Kentucky Oaks Day is basically a holiday in Louisville.

....and Churchill gets 50,000 or more on Thursday before the Oaks. And schools are closed on Friday.

[sumitas]

....and Churchill gets 50,000 or more on Thursday before the Oaks. And schools are closed on Friday.

Never say never.

[Danzig]

That's just so wrong that it's almost depressing.

There will be many people who don't see the Friday races that will be denied seeing the races decided Saturday that belong as part of the marquis event. Instead they will see inconsequential filler.

Some of us " fans " aren't enamoured with turf sprints....now we are forced to deal with one if we want to play Pick-4s on Saturday ( involving other true championship races ). I know this fan won't be playing.

this is the biggest problem i see with these moves, i agree completely. they've watered down saturday terribly.

[sumitas]

The way I look at it...the more the merrier. I like giving the horses an opportunity to compete. I may not agree with the exact lineup, but generally I feel a star can be born in any race. I'm positive about the 2 days.

[Dunbar]

Racing always misses the boat with their marketing so why would they get it right this time? They simply seem to forget that most racing fans are smarter than the average joe ...yet they continue to try to dumbdown the game for mass appeal. Racing is complicated and a good part of the allure is the challenge of trying to figure it out.

I would have agreed with this before observing how racing fans showed very little enthusiasm when presented with the opportunity to bet with a 4% takeout last summer, prefering instead to "figure out" how to beat a 16-20% takeout elsewhere.

--Dunbar

[brockguy]

With so many years of stability in the Breeders Cup, you have just so many changes over the past number of years that it has gotten a bit crazy. I suppose most people are thinking what the hell have they got in store for next year??

[Cannon Shell]

I would have agreed with this before observing how racing fans showed very little enthusiasm when presented with the opportunity to bet with a 4% takeout last summer, prefering instead to "figure out" how to beat a 16-20% takeout elsewhere.

--Dunbar
I couldn't blame anyone for not betting Ellis Park if they offered free bets. Even though a lot of fans read the form and dont really know what they are doing, at least they can read unlike the vast majority of the NASCAR fan base (sorry Cajun and Slotdirt)

[letswastemoney]

If they did that 4% takeout thing at a major circuit track (SA, Hol, Bel, Churchill), I believe it would work. I just don't like Ellis cards because I'm not familiar with the horses or the jockey and trainer patterns.

[Cannon Shell]

If they did that 4% takeout thing at a major circuit track (SA, Hol, Bel, Churchill), I believe it would work. I just don't like Ellis cards because I'm not familiar with the horses or the jockey and trainer patterns.
Exactly. For players that dont follow the circuit, (and Ellis is mostly made up of lower tier KY horses, Indiana horses and Fairmont horses)the takeout is not appealing because they have no clue about what is going on. I'm sure if Saratoga during that time period had the same bet with the same takeout it would have been a big success. Plus for lower takeout to truly be effective it must be in effect for a long period of time.

[Payson Dave]

I couldn't blame anyone for not betting Ellis Park if they offered free bets. Even though a lot of fans read the form and dont really know what they are doing, at least they can read unlike the vast majority of the NASCAR fan base (sorry Cajun and Slotdirt)


Cajun is really good at looking at the pictures though

[Cannon Shell]

Cajun is really good at looking at the pictures though
At Beulah

[Danzig]

i feel so stupid.

i didn't really think about why the BC officials added these new races. i didn't think about why they wanted to run on a friday-i figured that they wanted to give the fans more-and there's the difficulty of fitting races into a one-day schedule.
i just was doing some catching up on my reading, and am on page 965 in the feb 16 bloodhorse. it's the dan liebman (editor in chief) article that he does.....bear with my typing from this article, which discusses the bc going to cali two years in a row.


'churchill is not happy with the financial arrangements whereby Breeders Cup takes most of the handle and simulcasting revenue, leaving the host track with, basically, just another big Saturday. One thing tracks could count on was a nice spike in on-track business the day before the BC. But, with the BC races now also on Friday, much of that handle also flows to BC, not the host track.(my italics).'

also says in the article that monmouth lost money on the bc last year--weather didn't help of course, but they lost millions.


seems that liebman points the blame for churchill not getting the deal next year on the ky track. but with the current state of the bc race schedule--what's in it for churchill really?

so, all about money. BC wanted the friday money too, rather than just saturday. and the sponsorship dough. and now they want a sponsor for the whole event, not just for each race.

does everyone remember what happened to the golden goose at the end of the story?

[Phalaris1913]

I may not agree with the exact lineup, but generally I feel a star can be born in any race.

Herein lies the problem.

Breeders' Cup races should not be a place to expect stars to be born.

The Breeders' Cup is a celebration of the greatest horses in our sport; not a place to look for future talent among obscurities.

[blackthroatedwind]

Herein lies the problem.

Breeders' Cup races should not be a place to expect stars to be born.

The Breeders' Cup is a celebration of the greatest horses in our sport; not a place to look for future talent among obscurities.

That's a great point.

[hi_im_god]

i feel so stupid.

i didn't really think about why the BC officials added these new races. i didn't think about why they wanted to run on a friday-i figured that they wanted to give the fans more-and there's the difficulty of fitting races into a one-day schedule.
i just was doing some catching up on my reading, and am on page 965 in the feb 16 bloodhorse. it's the dan liebman (editor in chief) article that he does.....bear with my typing from this article, which discusses the bc going to cali two years in a row.


'churchill is not happy with the financial arrangements whereby Breeders Cup takes most of the handle and simulcasting revenue, leaving the host track with, basically, just another big Saturday. One thing tracks could count on was a nice spike in on-track business the day before the BC. But, with the BC races now also on Friday, much of that handle also flows to BC, not the host track.(my italics).'

also says in the article that monmouth lost money on the bc last year--weather didn't help of course, but they lost millions.


seems that liebman points the blame for churchill not getting the deal next year on the ky track. but with the current state of the bc race schedule--what's in it for churchill really?

so, all about money. BC wanted the friday money too, rather than just saturday. and the sponsorship dough. and now they want a sponsor for the whole event, not just for each race.

does everyone remember what happened to the golden goose at the end of the story?

"does everyone remember what happened to the golden goose at the end of the story?"

they cut her open to get to the ordinary eggs inside.

[Danzig]

"does everyone remember what happened to the golden goose at the end of the story?"

they cut her open to get to the ordinary eggs inside.

nope, rather than being happy with her laying a golden egg at a time, they got greedy and killed the goose. no gold, no more eggs.

[hi_im_god]

nope, rather than being happy with her laying a golden egg at a time, they got greedy and killed the goose. no gold, no more eggs.

the goose was made out of gold, though.

right?

[Danzig]

the goose was made out of gold, though.

right?

no, just a goose. her eggs were gold.

[hi_im_god]

no, just a goose. her eggs were gold.

so she was an ordinary goose that laid golden eggs?

i think her name is deceptive.

just cause my kid does something doesn't make me the golden cock.

[Dunbar]

Herein lies the problem.

Breeders' Cup races should not be a place to expect stars to be born.

The Breeders' Cup is a celebration of the greatest horses in our sport; not a place to look for future talent among obscurities.

Right. And instead of what was just a short time ago a chance to see many of these best horses race against each other in the same race, we now have more and more opportunities for them to NOT run against each other.

--Dunbar

[Dunbar]

If they did that 4% takeout thing at a major circuit track (SA, Hol, Bel, Churchill), I believe it would work. I just don't like Ellis cards because I'm not familiar with the horses or the jockey and trainer patterns.

1. You don't have to be NEARLY as familiar with the local conditions when you are trying to beat a 4% vig compared to trying to beat a 20% vig.

2. Do you think the capping competition at Ellis is as tough as at SA, Hol, Bel, Churchill? Maybe it is, but I doubt it.

3. If horse bettors were so bright, they would have collectively realized that if the 4% Ellis experiment was successful, other tracks would have noticed and tried similar things. Instead, what the other tracks noticed was a 4% takeout that did not bring in nearly enough action to justify the low vig.

Even if you knew nothing about the track, a random Ellis pick 4 costing $100 would have been a $4 investment in the future of the game. Despite the fact that the vast majority of bettors, including those here, are losing far more than 4% of their total bets in the longterm, not many bettors supported the Ellis venture.

--Dunbar

[Danzig]

so she was an ordinary goose that laid golden eggs?

i think her name is deceptive.

just cause my kid does something doesn't make me the golden cock.

.....

[Danzig]

so she was an ordinary goose that laid golden eggs?

i think her name is deceptive.

just cause my kid does something doesn't make me the golden cock.

well, i apologize that in my haste at typing earlier that i called her the golden goose. she was just a goose.

[Cannon Shell]

1. You don't have to be NEARLY as familiar with the local conditions when you are trying to beat a 4% vig compared to trying to beat a 20% vig.

2. Do you think the capping competition at Ellis is as tough as at SA, Hol, Bel, Churchill? Maybe it is, but I doubt it.

3. If horse bettors were so bright, they would have collectively realized that if the 4% Ellis experiment was successful, other tracks would have noticed and tried similar things. Instead, what the other tracks noticed was a 4% takeout that did not bring in nearly enough action to justify the low vig.

Even if you knew nothing about the track, a random Ellis pick 4 costing $100 would have been a $4 investment in the future of the game. Despite the fact that the vast majority of bettors, including those here, are losing far more than 4% of their total bets in the longterm, not many bettors supported the Ellis venture.

--Dunbar
All of what you say is probably true but Ellis is such a pile of crap especially when you are competing against Saratoga, Del Mar and even Arlington. I have yet to find a horseplayer who plays for the good of the game even if it will in the long run possibly help them. Most players, even here, follow the sport and wager in a part time fashion and I just dont see those people having much interest in handicapping Ellis regardless of takeout. I tried to play some of the Ellis pick 4's because i thought it was a great idea. But honestly after a few miserable attempts I threw in the towel. Well I may just suck as a handicapper but thats another story.

[Dunbar]

All of what you say is probably true but Ellis is such a pile of crap especially when you are competing against Saratoga, Del Mar and even Arlington. I have yet to find a horseplayer who plays for the good of the game even if it will in the long run possibly help them. Most players, even here, follow the sport and wager in a part time fashion and I just dont see those people having much interest in handicapping Ellis regardless of takeout. I tried to play some of the Ellis pick 4's because i thought it was a great idea. But honestly after a few miserable attempts I threw in the towel. Well I may just suck as a handicapper but thats another story.

Yeah, CS, there is a bit of a Prisoner's Dilemma aspect to expecting folks to "play for the good of the game". I did do just that, however, because I thought it was that important. I was vacationing during almost all the promotion, and would normally have spent zero time making horse bets. (it was Hawaii, after all!) But I took about a half hour each morning to create a $200-$400 ticket. If there were another 100 people in the entire country doing that, it would have had an impact. If there were 300 people doing that, every track would have taken notice. My "expected loss" was about $12/day, assuming my capping was completely clueless. (an assumption that I could not easily reject, as far as the Pick 4's went) As it turned out, I did considerably worse than a dart thrower with my Ellis bets, but that doesn't really change the way I look at it.

--Dunbar

[Round Pen]

I understand about the people working but there is lots of advance time and if you are traveling to get there you would not be working on Friday anyway. Plus Saratoga, Keeneland and Del Mar do awfully well on weekdays. I am just disheartend by a supposed championship event being run by people who dont have any clue and ithe fact that they may make changes that make these seem pedestrian


I think Bill Farish has Pretty good Ideal of what is going on in Racing Probably more so than you.

[blackthroatedwind]

I think Bill Farish has Pretty good Ideal of what is going on in Racing Probably more so than you.


Chuck has a better idea of what is really going on in every facet of the game than anybody on that commitee.

That's no insult to Will Farrish.....it is what it is.

[DelKev]

The most obvious thing is that while the BC is trying so hard to appeal to a wider population, they are turning off their core customer.

Absolutely right! They would be smarter to cater to the fans they already have -- word of mouth is still the best advertising. Horse racing will never (again) be a mainstream sport no matter how much marketing dollars you throw at it. I wonder if ESPN has something to do with all these stupid ideas to "improve" the Breeders Cup?

[Cannon Shell]

I think Bill Farish has Pretty good Ideal of what is going on in Racing Probably more so than you.
That is ridiclous. I dont have any idea what Bill Farish knows but I do know that the hardcore fans of racing have been alarmingly up in arms about the changes. I do know that "win and your in" is strictly a marketing device (and a weak one at that) Imagine if an NCAA team was guaranteed a spot in the tourney by winning the Maui Classic? I do know that running a Breeders Cup race on Breeders Cup day and not having it televised (the marathon) seems like a bad idea. I do know that renaming the Distaff wont attract one more viewer or gambling dollar. I have run horses in both the Breeders Cup and Hong Kong Invitational and there is no question about where we were treated better both on the backside and frontside. I do know that alienating your most passionate fans in puzzling attempts to create new fans not a good idea.

As opposed to stating why you believe I am incorrect, you post "Bill Farish is smarter than you". I can tell you a few things that I know that Bill Farish cant . I can post the views of a fan with no family connections to the game, I can post the view of a broke college student that needs to cash a bet to have money to eat, I can post a view of a college educated guy living in a tack room while learning the ropes grooming from the ground up, I can post the view of a racing official, I can post the view of a private trainer, I can post the view of a public trainer, I can post the view of a small breeder, I can post the view of an owner. I can post the view of a pinhooker.I have been all of the above. Maybe I am not as smart as the illustrious board members but I know alot more about what people both in and out of the business reallyfeel about what is going on.

[blackthroatedwind]

But other than that Chuck.....have you ever hosted a Tea for the Queen?

[Cannon Shell]

But other than that Chuck.....have you ever hosted a Tea for the Queen?
I stay away from all kinds of queens

[blackthroatedwind]

I stay away from all kinds of queens


I can really think of something funny to say......but it would make Beth too happy.

[sumitas]

They're not televising the Marathon ? That is just plain wrong.

[cmorioles]

They're not televising the Marathon ? That is just plain wrong.

They probably only have 4 hours of air time. They don't want to devote 25% to the running of one race.

[sumitas]

They need to renogotiate so that the Marathon is televised, imo.

Here's an idea. How about a relay race with 4 4F sprints and the jockeys handing off the baton (whip) ?

[Coach Pants]

They need to fire Jerry Bailey and hire sumitas to take his place.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Sorry if I should know this but have they said what the 6 races for the Pick 6 will now be?

Classic, Turf, Mile, Sprint, Juvenile and ???

Or will they just make it a Pick 9?

[freddymo]

They need to renogotiate so that the Marathon is televised, imo.

Here's an idea. How about a relay race with 4 4F sprints and the jockeys handing off the baton (whip) ?

Camels or horses?

[Linny]

I think Bill Farish has Pretty good Ideal of what is going on in Racing Probably more so than you.


Have you spoken with people like Farish and others about these issues. I have. Not on this topic specifically, but I have had the chance to speak with some of the members of racing's "elite" about issues and am always dumbfounded by their answers. People like the Farishes and the Phipps' may be steeped in the traditions of the game and may know all about granddads breeding farm but that's about it. Ask them how the trainers feel about certain management decisions. Ask them how horseplayers feel about things. They may walk around at Saratoga and Keeneland and Belmont etc and might even walk between groups of horseplayers, but they are in a bubble. They don't interact with the crowd. They may be "in it" but they are not "of it."
People who run BC exist in the same bubble. They hire marketing firms with no ties to racing and it's traditions or it's participants. I'll take Cannon Shell's statements. He's out there everyday, participating in the game. He certainly knoews more about it than some "Jr. Marketing Analyst" on Madison Ave.

[Scav]

I just thought of something in regards to the BC Turf Sprint. With them running it down the hill this year, can they run it 6f or 6.5f around the turf course if needed. If it spits they take the hill races off the turf and I am not sure if the turf course can accomodate a 6f race....anyone know?

[pgiaco]

I think the SA turf course is only 7/8 of a mile around. So I don't think they can run 6 or 6.5 unless they go down the hill.

[AeWingnut]

Monmuth was a swamp last BC and they ran. I don't know but I guess they will run down the hill and if they tell the NASCAR fans about the possibility for disaster the rating will go up?

I imagine racing down hill on a really wet turf could be dangerous. Guess we'll find out who comes first.