So where are all the "Pletcher is God" disciples and NO BIZ is crap believers?

[NoLuvForPletch]

Amazing the way people love to pop off about something only to never be heard from again on the subject. In the past 2 months there have been more NO BIZ is nothing more than he was last year (a slow horse) threads here so where are all of his detractors now? And how about the 10 pages worth of arguement that Pletcher is Superman in a shedrow? Another fabulous performance by his charges. Thank goodness English Channel is as good as he is, and also had the perfect trip, or it would've been another 0-fer for CEO/Thoroughbred Trainer Todd Pletcher. Any Given Saturday's performance was a pathetic joke. Maybe Todd should've found and easier spot for him to prep for the Classic than the Brooklyn? P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!!

[Indian Charlie]

Amazing the way people love to pop off about something only to never be heard from again on the subject. In the past 2 months there have been more NO BIZ is nothing more than he was last year (a slow horse) threads here so where are all of his detractors now? And how about the 10 pages worth of arguement that Pletcher is Superman in a shedrow? Another fabulous performance by his charges. Thank goodness English Channel is as good as he is, and also had the perfect trip, or it would've been another 0-fer for CEO/Thoroughbred Trainer Todd Pletcher. Any Given Saturday's performance was a pathetic joke. Maybe Todd should've found and easier spot for him to prep for the Classic than the Brooklyn? P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!!

would you mind explaining your post?

[SentToStud]

At this rate, Pletcher will, for the second time, break his own earnings record. And that is despite missing 6 weeks of Gulf, etc... His owners earned $2.5 million+ Saturday.

Yeah, he sucks.

[NTamm1215]

Amazing the way people love to pop off about something only to never be heard from again on the subject. In the past 2 months there have been more NO BIZ is nothing more than he was last year (a slow horse) threads here so where are all of his detractors now? And how about the 10 pages worth of arguement that Pletcher is Superman in a shedrow? Another fabulous performance by his charges. Thank goodness English Channel is as good as he is, and also had the perfect trip, or it would've been another 0-fer for CEO/Thoroughbred Trainer Todd Pletcher. Any Given Saturday's performance was a pathetic joke. Maybe Todd should've found and easier spot for him to prep for the Classic than the Brooklyn? P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!!

I suppose one can see you have an agenda before even reading anything you write, but like Indian Charlie said, what exactly is the point of your post?

NT

[Benevolus]

Pletcher did win the second biggest race of the day. When a trainer wins 1 race on BC day it is a great day. So if you ask me he had a very good day.

As for Nobiz, what is your point. He barely held on for 4th in a race where the beyer was a 108 for the winner. So what did Nobiz run a 100. The European with the terrible post ran by him like he was standing still. Same slow horse.

Get a clue.

[SniperSB23]

Can you please point out the 10 page "Pletcher is God" threads on here? I'm pretty sure there aren't many fans of Pletcher on here.

As for Nobiz he ran well but he also was beat by Kip Deville and Cosmonaut who aren't exactly on their way to the Hall of Fame.

[NTamm1215]

Pletcher did win the second biggest race of the day. When a trainer wins 1 race on BC day it is a great day. So if you ask me he had a very good day.

As for Nobiz, what is your point. He barely held on for 4th in a race where the beyer was a 108 for the winner. So what did Nobiz run a 100. The European with the terrible post ran by him like he was standing still. Same slow horse.

Get a clue.

Just, FYI, Nobiz got a career high 103, five points less than the winner.

NT

[Benevolus]

Just, FYI, Nobiz got a career high 103, five points less than the winner.

NT


Great a 103. Which I believe he had already run before, maybe on dirt. Are we now saying horses that run a 103 beyer are fast? Excellent Art ran by him like he was stuck in mud.

Curlin ran a 119. English Channel a 110+. Those are fast horses but somehow we hear more about this Nobiz horse than we ever hear about English Channel. Give it up already. The horse is not fast.

[declansharbor]

We all do know to take most turf beyers with a grain of salt, right?
Both progression and regression.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Great a 103. Which I believe he had already run before, maybe on dirt. Are we now saying horses that run a 103 beyer are fast? Excellent Art ran by him like he was stuck in mud.

Curlin ran a 119. English Channel a 110+. Those are fast horses but somehow we hear more about this Nobiz horse than we ever hear about English Channel. Give it up already. The horse is not fast.

He's 3, with 4 races on the turf under his belt? English Channel is 5 with about 4 times more racing experience (on the turf). Comparing his 103 to Curlin's 119 on the dirt is simply moronic.

[Coach Pants]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr0kB_wt3Kc

[Benevolus]

We all do know to take most turf beyers with a grain of salt, right?
Both progression and regression.

I couldn't agree more but the horse is not fast on dirt of turf. The arguments about his trip are ridiculous. He got a better trip than half the field, a weak BC Mile field at that.

The horse could improve at 4 but nothing in his 3yr old season makes me believe he is a fast horse. A solid stakes horse but nothing to write home about.

The hype around the horse is very puzzling.

[NoLuvForPletch]

At this rate, Pletcher will, for the second time, break his own earnings record. And that is despite missing 6 weeks of Gulf, etc... His owners earned $2.5 million+ Saturday.

Yeah, he sucks.

Seriously? I'm sure his owners are just thrilled that EC won 1.6 million of that 2.5 million+. He had a banner day by HIS standards. 10 starters, 1 win, 1 second, 1 third.

Never said "he sucks". I did say very Overrated.

[declansharbor]

I couldn't agree more but the horse is not fast on dirt of turf. The arguments about his trip are ridiculous. He got a better trip than half the field, a weak BC Mile field at that.

The horse could improve at 4 but nothing in his 3yr old season makes me believe he is a fast horse. A solid stakes horse but nothing to write home about.

The hype around the horse is very puzzling.

I really don't see him being all that fast either. And you are correct in saying that this horse can improve moving forward into his 4 yr old campaign.
The horses he beat in his BC preps were no world beaters, it was just the impressive fashion in how he drew off down the stretch. He most certainly can make some noise in the turf division if he continues to take to the grass.

[Cannon Shell]

I cant understand the hating of the horse. To say that he did not run an excellent race in the mile is puzzling. He ran 4th and was only beaten 2 lengths despite a wide trip. He arguably ran as good as anyone in there and is the only runner who is still eligible to improve as a 4 year old. He may not be Miesque but he is a versitile horse who runs consistently on different surfaces and different distances. He is easily one of the top 6 or 7 three year olds this year from a good crop of about 18000 male foals. What's not to like?

[parsixfarms]

Are we now saying horses that run a 103 beyer are fast?

I'm not about to wade into the "how good is NoBiz" debate, but yes, horses that run 103 Beyers are fast. If not, I'll take a whole barn full of those slow critters.

[Benevolus]

I cant understand the hating of the horse. To say that he did not run an excellent race in the mile is puzzling. He ran 4th and was only beaten 2 lengths despite a wide trip. He arguably ran as good as anyone in there and is the only runner who is still eligible to improve as a 4 year old. He may not be Miesque but he is a versitile horse who runs consistently on different surfaces and different distances. He is easily one of the top 6 or 7 three year olds this year from a good crop of about 18000 male foals. What's not to like?

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

[Benevolus]

I'm not about to wade into the "how good is NoBiz" debate, but yes, horses that run 103 Beyers are fast. If not, I'll take a whole barn full of those slow critters.

Not with grade 1 horses it isn't.

[NoLuvForPletch]

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

Overhyped??? Lawyer Ron and Any Given Saturday got an awful lot of face time over the past few months. They weren't even in the picture when the Superfecta was completed.

[NTamm1215]

Overhyped??? Lawyer Ron and Any Given Saturday got an awful lot of face time over the past few months. They weren't even in the picture when the Superfecta was completed.

Of course, they both won meaningful races after April.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.
Where did Excellent Art have a tougher trip? He tucked in early, stayed covered up and made a late run while lugging in on his own accord. He finished one length ahead of NoBiz. I mean your standards are seemingly so high that only on or two horses are any good in a given year? I dont know anyone who was calling this horse a hall of fame horse or superstar. But he is a really nice horse who if he had an inside trip may very well be the BC mile winner.

Pletcher winning one race is not a good day as per the standards that he set, especially when he had 2 possibiles for horse of the year run way off the board. Sure it might be a great day for a smaller trainer but I'm sure he is not really that thrilled over it.

[Cannon Shell]

Where was he "overhyped?" Even if you limit your media to this chat room only, he received support and had detractors. There are over 1,000 people affiliated with this board; were 5% of the people on his bandwagon?

I thought that he ran a solid race on Saturday. Flattened out a little bit, but he beat most of the field to the wire in his first attempt on a soft surface. Not bad, and I'd like to own a horse who can run reasonably well on dirt -- though he might not return to that surface next year, given Tagg's reason for transferring him to the turf -- and on turf. Not too many of those out there, right?
He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

[Benevolus]

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Well the Albert the Great connection and the purchasing of a certain amount of ad space in the bloodhorse probably had a little to do with the fact that the bloodhorse was in love with Nobiz for some reason. Haskin commenting that we haven't seen an american turf horse in years with the turn of foot of Nobiz was either the result of too much drinking or a wad of 100's stuffed in his pocket by three chimneys. LOL

As for Nobiz vs Excellent Art, the Louisville Courier comments were

"He's a good or fast ground horse," said Aidan O'Brien, who trains Excellent Art. "He was drawn outside (post 13), so he had to let the race unfold, but he was closing, closing, closing at the end."

Nobiz Like Shobiz made a strong bid at the top of the stretch but flattened out to finish fourth.

Excellent Art's trip cost him the win. The trip Nobiz had was better than the trip the 5th and 6th place finishers had and they nearly caught him


The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.

[whodey17]

No Biz is a still a good horse. The horse finished 4th in the BC Mile. I would take that anyday of the week.

[Cannon Shell]

Well the Albert the Great connection and the purchasing of a certain amount of ad space in the bloodhorse probably had a little to do with the fact that the bloodhorse was in love with Nobiz for some reason. Haskin commenting that we haven't seen an american turf horse in years with the turn of foot of Nobiz was either the result of too much drinking or a wad of 100's stuffed in his pocket by three chimneys. LOL

As for Nobiz vs Excellent Art, the Louisville Courier comments were

"He's a good or fast ground horse," said Aidan O'Brien, who trains Excellent Art. "He was drawn outside (post 13), so he had to let the race unfold, but he was closing, closing, closing at the end."

Nobiz Like Shobiz made a strong bid at the top of the stretch but flattened out to finish fourth.

Excellent Art's trip cost him the win. The trip Nobiz had was better than the trip the 5th and 6th place finishers had and they nearly caught him


The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.
The Bloodhorse takes adds from all the major farms so I'm sure they aren't biased towards Three Chimney farm especially for that stallion. Saying that Steve Haskin would take money to write nice about a horse is just plain stupid. Haskin is not only a great writer especially as compared to most of what we get for writers in this sport but his reputation and integrity is impeccable.

[ceejay]

NoBiz @ 4-1 second choice was the underlay of the day.

[Bobby Fischer]

Nobiz didn't embarass himself. For a 9 or 10 furlong horse who is more of a great animal with versatility than a true top class turf animal, he really did well against some top class turf older horse milers.

Pletcher had at least English Channel and Honey Rider run big races (without looking over the charts). Lawyer Ron was a Grade 2 horse that couldn't finish a race before Pletcher pumped him up. Lawyer Ron had some of the best 4yo races this summer. It would have been a little funky to see Lawyer Ron win the classic but Pletcher actually made that horse into something you would have to consider as one of the five win contenders.
Any Given Saturday was naturally a 8.5 furlong horse. He happened to peak around the same time as Lawyer Ron this year and won an 8.5 and 9 furlong race in some of the best performances of the year for a 3yo horse. Again it would have been funky if this guy won the classic off a trainer move up , but he was one of the 5 contenders. They actually parlayed his Distorte Humor x AP Indy pedigree combined with the trainer/vet move-up for a hugely inflated sale! It was a Super year from Pletcher in that regard.

[Bobby Fischer]

NoBiz @ 4-1 second choice was the underlay of the day.


true.


and this was even with the linesmaker stubbornly setting opening him @ 8-1 !
If he went by the public and started him at 3-1 in the program , he may have gone off at 3-1.


edit - most distinguished was pretty bad as well - i forget where he went off. Nashobas key had her work cut out with the soft.. who else? discreet cat(friday), Helsinki! (no way in the slop) ... come to think of it, should have made a lot more money than we did.

[Danzig]

Amazing the way people love to pop off about something only to never be heard from again on the subject. In the past 2 months there have been more NO BIZ is nothing more than he was last year (a slow horse) threads here so where are all of his detractors now? And how about the 10 pages worth of arguement that Pletcher is Superman in a shedrow? Another fabulous performance by his charges. Thank goodness English Channel is as good as he is, and also had the perfect trip, or it would've been another 0-fer for CEO/Thoroughbred Trainer Todd Pletcher. Any Given Saturday's performance was a pathetic joke. Maybe Todd should've found and easier spot for him to prep for the Classic than the Brooklyn? P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!!


i must have been on the evil twin board all this time, as i don't remember any cheerleading for pletcher posts.
as for posts about nobiz, the horse didn't win, or win anyone a bet unless they included him in a winning super. i could be wrong, but i don't often see a lot of praise for a horse who doesn't win, or show much in a narrow defeat. nobiz apparently ran his usual race, which against top competition isn't quite enough.

[MisterB]

I cant understand the hating of the horse. To say that he did not run an excellent race in the mile is puzzling. He ran 4th and was only beaten 2 lengths despite a wide trip. He arguably ran as good as anyone in there and is the only runner who is still eligible to improve as a 4 year old. He may not be Miesque but he is a versitile horse who runs consistently on different surfaces and different distances. He is easily one of the top 6 or 7 three year olds this year from a good crop of about 18000 male foals. What's not to like?

Is it safe to attack JV then??? He isn't that good on the turf, he has bucked shins.:)

[Kasept]

It's funny how publicity or public expectations of a horse can skew your own opinion.. Personally, I didn't care for the dirt incantation of Nobiz Like Shobiz at all during the Derby Trail, but have come to really like him now. I thought he ran very credibly Saturday and as mentioned elsewhere, talked with Tagg waiting for Velazquez to come back with the colt. He wasn't happy with the wide run and swing out on the turn by JV, but seemed please with the horse's effort and progress overall. He also speculated that Nobiz is going to continue to improve saying, "He's got a lot more to do yet."

[ArlJim78]

The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.
if your whole point is that he was an underlay, ok, we get it. you could be right. there is no arguing that he ran a nice race finishing only 2 lengths back.
to imply that he is slow though is hard to understand. if NoBiz-like speed is the threshold below which all horses are slow, then 99.9% of all horses are slow.

somehow i am missing all the hype on this horse that you keep referring to.
to me an article or statement in bloodhorse does not constitute excessive hype.

[SentToStud]

It's funny how publicity or public expectations of a horse can skew your own opinion.. Personally, I didn't care for the dirt incantation of Nobiz Like Shobiz at all during the Derby Trail, but have come to really like him now. I thought he ran very credibly Saturday and as mentioned elsewhere, talked with Tagg waiting for Velazquez to come back with the colt. He wasn't happy with the wide run and swing out on the turn by JV, but seemed please with the horse's effort and propgress overall. He also speculated that Nobiz is going to continue to improve saying, "He's got a lot more to do yet."
It's also funny (maybe lamentable) that so much emphasis is put on one race but that's what the BC has done to the sport, for better or otherwise. If you ran the Mile, Turf, FM Turf and Distaff 10 times each, you'd probably see 3-5 different winners of those races.

[ELA]

I don't think Tagg's horse embarrased himself at all. All things considered, I thought he raced good. Tired, flattened out, etc. -- yeah, sure, all a byproduct of the trip, track, pace, and so on. If you didn't like the horse, you have one slant. If you did, you have another. OK.

I thought the horse had potential earlier in the year, Derby trail. However, after he didn't progress, move forward, etc. I figured he was what he was. I do think they reinvented the horse to an extent in heading to the weeds with him, and there I think he moved forward significantly. I was never a big fan, but I am glad he's coming back next year.

Eric

[Pedigree Ann]

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Nobiz Like Shobiz $1,544,730
Albertus Maximus $193,370
Royal Right $174,329
Dr. Einstein $135,538
My Great Love $116,270
Motion $114,355
Always Albert $96,060
Topside Trader $88,445
Great Bridge $76,975
Almagnus $76,930

Year Wins Earned
2005 16 $271,123
2006 75 $1,659,474
*Totals 91 $1,930,597
add for 2007 so far 35 winners from 59 starters, earnings of $2,334,223

His oldest foals are 4, far too early to dismiss a sire as useless. They don't sell particularly well for some reason, but it isn't because they can't run. He hasn't had super-sized crops - 67 in '03, 51 in '04, 61 in '05 (current 2yos) - and in general they aren't ready at 2, Nobiz being the exception. If I were a breed-to-race breeder, I'd consider him a bargain at $7,500.

[Cannon Shell]

Is it safe to attack JV then??? He isn't that good on the turf, he has bucked shins.:)
Yes it is

[Cannon Shell]

Nobiz Like Shobiz $1,544,730
Albertus Maximus $193,370
Royal Right $174,329
Dr. Einstein $135,538
My Great Love $116,270
Motion $114,355
Always Albert $96,060
Topside Trader $88,445
Great Bridge $76,975
Almagnus $76,930

Year Wins Earned
2005 16 $271,123
2006 75 $1,659,474
*Totals 91 $1,930,597
add for 2007 so far 35 winners from 59 starters, earnings of $2,334,223

His oldest foals are 4, far too early to dismiss a sire as useless. They don't sell particularly well for some reason, but it isn't because they can't run. He hasn't had super-sized crops - 67 in '03, 51 in '04, 61 in '05 (current 2yos) - and in general they aren't ready at 2, Nobiz being the exception. If I were a breed-to-race breeder, I'd consider him a bargain at $7,500.
Outside of Nobiz that is not exactly murders row. Dont forget we live in the day of 80k allowance races at places like presque isle...

[King Glorious]

Perspective is a good word here. Take the New York Yankees, for example. There are 30 teams in the major leagues and only eight of them make the playoffs. I believe it's been 12 consecutive seasons that the Yankees have been one of those eight. They've won four championships in that span. However, they've not won the championship since 2000 and haven't even been to the World Series since 2003. Now, I'm sure that the fans of the Pirates, Brewers, Royals, Devil Rays, Rangers, Mariners, etc., would LOVE to trade places with the Yankees. These teams can't even get into the playoffs. The Yankees get there every year and fire their manager because they have just had another disappointing season. There are different expectations for different people. There is a term that goes well here; to whom much is given, much is expected. In the case of Pletcher, there is no doubt that he expects more. He's given a much better hand to start than 99% of his competition. I know that last year, he didn't win any races but his stable came away with over $2 million in earnings and he won another national earnings title and broke the record. May have earned the Eclipse last year too but I don't remember. He himself admitted though that it was a disappointing day for him in the BC last year. I suppose that because he actually won one of the races this year, it was better for him but he still didn't reach the expectations that were set for him, either by the public or by himself. To see those arguing on his behalf that he had a successful day is kind of funny when if u ask him, he'd tell u he is disappointed.

As for Nobiz, let's understand something. I don't think that anyone has called him any kind of world beater. I was never a fan of his and still won't say that I am. But he's a horse that was among the best of his generation as a 2yo and throughout the first half of his 3yo season. This was on the dirt. He won a grade one and won or placed in several other graded races. Sure, he's not at the level of Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun and maybe Any Given Saturday. But after those four, there is not another 3yo that I'd take over him. Then he switched to grass and ran some very big races. He didn't win the Mile but he lost by only about two lengths to Kip Deville and Excellent Art and both of those horses are world class runners. There is absolutely no shame in that. What I think that some people fail to realize is that today's runners just aren't as good as they have been in the past decades. The top dirt Beyer in a route this year was 119, reached by two horses. We've gotten used to seeing Candy Ride go 124, Pleasantly Perfect reach the 120 mark a few times. Ghostzapper made 120+ seem routine. The list includes several others. So what we have to realize is that the bar is being lowered each year. If none of these top 3yo's come back next year, we could see an even more pathetic group of older horses, where the winners of races like the SA Hcp, JCGC, Woodward, etc, can barely reach the 110 level. But there is something to remember. Each year, we are going to have a group of horses. Either it's going to be a good group or it's going to be a bad one. Either way, there will be a best of that group. I think that anyone that can't recognize that Nobiz is among the best of his group decided that a long time ago and doesn't want to admit they are wrong.