Bless You George Washington...

[richard burch]

i loved this horse.

last year when he was entered in the b.c. i thought he would be in the turf division. i thought he would win that race easily. but they put him in the classic and he came up in 7th place.

you would have thought they would have learned something. english turf horses don't do dirt!

instead they enter him again in the classic after retiring him!
...f'n unbelievable!!!

what dissappointed me most was that they had the chance to reconsider this ill fated move. when they saw the conditions of the track they could have scratched him. when the jockey went to the whip on the backstretched he could have pulled him up and trotted him home to retirement.

instead he kept pushing him to his ultimate demise.

this horse was a champion and deserved a better place to leave this earth than the mud at monmouth park.

this event marred what ever was left of a dismal,rainy day. whats worse is it did'nt have to happen.

new rule: all turf horses must have at least 2 grade 1 races on DIRT to enter the classic.

[onebadbeast]

Well Spoken.............a Sad Loss For The Animal World.....greed...

[richard burch]

Well Spoken.............a Sad Loss For The Animal World.....greed...


thank you,,,

[The Indomitable DrugS]

new rule: all horses must have at least 2 grade 1 victories on DIRT to enter the classic.

Horses who've won the BC with less than 2 career Grade 1 wins coming into the race.

1984: Wild Again
1986: Skywalker
1991: Black Tie Affair
1993: Arcangues
1994: Concern
1996: Alphabet Soup
1998: Awesome Again
1999: Cat Thief
2000: Tiznow
2002: Volponi
2003: Pleasantly Perfect

11 of them would have been excluded by this ever so ingenuis rule.

[letswastemoney]

Horses who've won the BC with less than 2 career Grade 1 wins coming into the race.

1984: Wild Again
1986: Skywalker
1991: Black Tie Affair
1993: Arcangues
1994: Concern
1996: Alphabet Soup
1998: Awesome Again
1999: Cat Thief
2000: Tiznow
2002: Volponi
2003: Pleasantly Perfect

11 of them would have been excluded by this ever so ingenuis rule.

Arcangues was a european too so he never raced on dirt before.

[ArlJim78]

This thread is ridiculous and is further evidence that this board is on the decline. While GW was a gallant horse, to try and act as if the outcome would have been any different on any surface is a joke. When approached with real facts, like DrugS has given, people really shut up. Get a grip guys.
oh boy, the board policemen have stepped in and righted another wrong. bravo. another over reaction to an emotional throw-away line by someone who was obviously shaken up by the demise of one of racings stars.

no the board went into severe decline when certain smug people like yourself decided to become the official arbiters for all board content. it is a disservice to run around daily labeling others opinions as ridiculous or a joke. get off your high horse.

you especially who went to extraordinary lengths to defend the rights of Morty who never made a single post that wasn't a joke or ridiculous, chastising other who "didn't get it", it would seem that you speak from both sides of your mouth. we were told over and over that we should have tolerance and acceptance for Morty, but everyone else that you disagree with needs to get a grip and is bringing down the board?

[Danzig]

it is a painful experience to lose a horse, god knows last years bc was painful for me after the distaff.
but to suggest that anyone is at fault imo is an over-reaction. had coolmore known going in that this would happen, do you really think they'd have run george?! hell no.
altho the winning percentage of euros on the dirt is low, who can forget the awesome performances by some of those travellers in defeat?
as for the jock going to the whip, that's what jockeys do. sometimes horses pick up when all is lost; who hasn't come here or elsewhere after a horse is seemingly done, only to awaken and put on a rush, and talked about that amazing performance?? again, if anyone had as much foresight as hindsight, this would not have occurred.
if you really feel that the human beings in this sport are that brutal and uncaring, perhaps you should leave the sport, and become an advocate to save these beautiful animals from the cruelty and greed. i'll continue however to be a fan, to enjoy the thrill of watching these beauties in action, and i will continue to feel pain for those who are lost.
but i will not point fingers, as to point blame for the running of a racehorse to me is ridiculous. unless this horse was shown to be unsound and unfit for racing, you are doing coolmore a disservice.

[Coach Pants]

New Rule: There's a god damn search button. Use it.

[RolloTomasi]

11 of them would have been excluded by this ever so ingenuis rule.

Anything that would have stopped Volponi, Arcangues, Concern, and Alphabet Soup from being BC Classic winners can't be all bad.

Then again, the fact that such horses can win on racing's alleged "biggest day", just underline's the fact that the BC races are often no more important than any other top level race in the country.

[Danzig]

11 of them would have been excluded by this ever so ingenuis rule.

Anything that would have stopped Volponi, Arcangues, Concern, and Alphabet Soup from being BC Classic winners can't be all bad.

Then again, the fact that such horses can win on racing's alleged "biggest day", just underline's the fact that the BC races are often no more important than any other top level race in the country.

why, you blasphemer, you! ;)

i wish everyone would understand that....especially the announcers on espn who come back from commercial talking about 'another championship sewn up by so and so' after they win. they need to change the name back to breeders cup, or festival, or anything other than 'world championships'.

[Danzig]

jambalay was injured, grasshopper didn't win anything to get in. he lost the super derby to going ballistic

[fpsoxfan]

11 of them would have been excluded by this ever so ingenuis rule.

Anything that would have stopped Volponi, Arcangues, Concern, and Alphabet Soup from being BC Classic winners can't be all bad.

Then again, the fact that such horses can win on racing's alleged "biggest day", just underline's the fact that the BC races are often no more important than any other top level race in the country.
Maybe It's because I'm still waking up, but could you explain what you mean by this post. I'm really trying to understand. Thanks.

[Danzig]

jambalaya isn't retired yet. they're giving him 90 days, and then reexamine. not supposed to be career threatening tho.

[richard burch]

Horses who've won the BC with less than 2 career Grade 1 wins coming into the race.

1984: Wild Again
1986: Skywalker
1991: Black Tie Affair
1993: Arcangues
1994: Concern
1996: Alphabet Soup
1998: Awesome Again
1999: Cat Thief
2000: Tiznow
2002: Volponi
2003: Pleasantly Perfect

11 of them would have been excluded by this ever so ingenuis rule.

i am speaking of european turf horses winning on US dirt tracks.

as far as i know, most if not all euro racing is on grass. those so-called tracks are in fields that are not level.

you can also see that they run in the opposite direction which can cauyse problems when they come to the US. this was evident in a race yesterday when 3 horses blew the far turn.

if the euros want to run here they should should try to get some dirt tracks and run in the other direction.

[richard burch]

This thread is ridiculous and is further evidence that this board is on the decline. While GW was a gallant horse, to try and act as if the outcome would have been any different on any surface is a joke. When approached with real facts, like DrugS has given, people really shut up. Get a grip guys.


with only about 20 - 30 people on this board most of the time you have to take what you can get.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

i am speaking of european turf horses winning on US dirt tracks.

as far as i know, most if not all euro racing is on grass. those so-called tracks are in fields that are not level.

you can also see that they run in the opposite direction which can cauyse problems when they come to the US. this was evident in a race yesterday when 3 horses blew the far turn.

if the euros want to run here they should should try to get some dirt tracks and run in the other direction.

I hear ya.

However, your new rule was awful.

If the BC Classic was restricted to multiple Grade 1 winners on dirt - in many years you'd have a four or five horse field running for a $5 million purse.

You'll actually run the risk of having more horses breakdown that way. Because the connections of a long in the tooth or sore horse who won a pair of Grade 1's in the past....they will do everything possible to make a race against three or four opponets that carries a $5,000,000 purse.

[NoChanceToDance]

We do have left-handed tracks as well, you know?

However, we only have once track in England that is as tight (possibly tighter) than the tracks you have in the US.

Four of the five synthetic tracks in Britain and Ireland are left-handed.

[Cannon Shell]

You cant legislate out breakdowns with rules...

Though I feel remorse for the groom and lads connected to the horse I think it is especially tragic when a top horse breaks down in a race where they had no chance.

[SniperSB23]

I hear ya.

However, your new rule was awful.

If the BC Classic was restricted to multiple Grade 1 winners on dirt - in many years you'd have a four or five horse field running for a $5 million purse.

You'll actually run the risk of having more horses breakdown that way. Because the connections of a long in the tooth or sore horse who won a pair of Grade 1's in the past....they will do everything possible to make a race against three or four opponets that carries a $5,000,000 purse.

Plus you'd have some completely off form older geldings entering the race to try and get fifth cause they had 2 G1 wins earlier in their career. Or horses like Silver Wagon who have no business going 10 furlongs.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

if a bc race can only get 5 entrants then they are TRULY a sham:eek:

Well, let's take a look if this highly amusing rule would have been in place for Saturday's BC Classic.

Of the field of nine - Any Given Saturday (one Grade 1 dirt wins) Hard Spun (one Grade 1 dirt win) Awesome Gem (0 Grade 1 dirt wins) Diamond Stripes (0 Grade 1 dirt wins) George Washington (0 Grade 1 dirt wins) - would all be excluding from running.

That leaves us with a four horse field for the Breeders Cup Classic consisting of.....Tiago (2 Grade 1 wins) Curlin (2 Grade 1 wins) Lawyer Ron (2 Grade 1 wins) and Street Sense (3 Grade 1 wins)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

if the rule had been in place trainers woulda planned for it

How would trainers have planned for it?

You mean they would have actually tried winning Grade 1 races?

This might be your best post yet!

[anamulla]

Even last year I thought it was a wrong move from his connections to enter GW in the classic. This year the decision to bring him back to compete with this strong field was even worst because in addition to all this, the horse never ran in the slop in the pass, so I couldn't understand what the connections were thinking. To me clearly they never considered what was the best for the horse, they just used him as a betting tool.
Note: Bobby Frankel was not present yesterday at MTH, because he didn't feel in good spirit because his dog is very sick with cancer. He prefered stay in So. California with his dog in the hospital. That's love to an animal.

[Cannon Shell]

Even last year I thought it was a wrong move from his connections to enter GW in the classic. This year the decision to bring him back to compete with this strong field was even worst because in addition to all this, the horse never ran in the slop in the pass, so I couldn't understand what the connections were thinking. To me clearly they never considered what was the best for the horse, they just used him as a betting tool.
Note: Bobby Frankel was not present yesterday at MTH, because he didn't feel in good spirit because his dog is very sick with cancer. He prefered stay in So. California with his dog in the hospital. That's love to an animal.
Or a good excuse not to go...

He still gets paid.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Even last year I thought it was a wrong move from his connections to enter GW in the classic. This year the decision to bring him back to compete with this strong field was even worst because in addition to all this, the horse never ran in the slop in the pass, so I couldn't understand what the connections were thinking. To me clearly they never considered what was the best for the horse, they just used him as a betting tool.
Note: Bobby Frankel was not present yesterday at MTH, because he didn't feel in good spirit because his dog is very sick with cancer. He prefered stay in So. California with his dog in the hospital. That's love to an animal.


They didn't use this horse as a "betting tool" in any sense of the word. I reckon the folks around Ballydoyle along with many in England and Ireland thought about as much of George Washington as all of the sap-heads over here thought of Barbaro.

They loved this horse dearly, and your analysis is way off. Without a doubt they thought he could win this race and be declared a champion. Aidan O'Brien isn't an idiot.

Maybe Barbaro broke down as well because he was a "true turf horse..."

Pure rubbish, all of this ****.

Racehorses break down, and the Ballydoyle team loved him just as much as anyone else loves any horse.

[stonegossard]

This thread is ridiculous and is further evidence that this board is on the decline. While GW was a gallant horse, to try and act as if the outcome would have been any different on any surface is a joke. When approached with real facts, like DrugS has given, people really shut up. Get a grip guys.

I see Super Boardman swooped down and scolded you. Too funny.

I agree...the surface had nothing to do with his demise....the connections gave up on him and kept throwing him to the wolves...very often....that was the problem.

These whiney "oh the poor horsie" threads are a bit much....they should keep them all in one area so we dont have to read em.

[Cannon Shell]

They didn't use this horse as a "betting tool" in any sense of the word. I reckon the folks around Ballydoyle along with many in England and Ireland thought about as much of George Washington as all of the sap-heads over here thought of Barbaro.

They loved this horse dearly, and your analysis is way off. Without a doubt they thought he could win this race and be declared a champion. Aidan O'Brien isn't an idiot.

Maybe Barbaro broke down as well because he was a "true turf horse..."

Pure rubbish, all of this ****.

Racehorses break down, and the Ballydoyle team loved him just as much as anyone else loves any horse.
Champion of what?

I'd guess that it wasn't Aidans choice to run

[Bravado2112]

Ya know, it's not like George Washington was beaten 50 lengths or eased when he ran in the Classic last year. As a 3yo trying dirt for the first time and having never run more than a mile before, he made a nice middle move before flattening out and finished 6th beaten 7 lenghts - running a 106 Beyer. He beat more than half the field and finished 3 1/2 lengths behind Premium Tap who would have been an elite handicap horse this year if he remained in the US. That 106 Beyer he ran last year was right in the same ballpark as what Street Sense and Tiago had run this summer/fall - and he easily could have improved on that with the experience and maturity.

I'm not saying I liked him to win, but running him back as a 4 year old with some maturity, dirt experience, and a couple of 10 furlong races under his belt certainly wasn't the most outlandish entry you'll ever see.

What happened was horrible but it's not like the owners were running Rick's Natural Star or some 10 claimer who didn't belong in the race to begin with.

[hockey2315]

Ya know, it's not like George Washington was beaten 50 lengths or eased when he ran in the Classic last year. As a 3yo trying dirt for the first time and having never run more than a mile before, he made a nice middle move before flattening out and finished 6th beaten 7 lenghts - running a 106 Beyer. He beat more than half the field and finished 3 1/2 lengths behind Premium Tap who would have been an elite handicap horse this year if he remained in the US. That 106 Beyer he ran last year was right in the same ballpark as what Street Sense and Tiago had run this summer/fall - and he easily could have improved on that with the experience and maturity.
I'm not saying I liked him to win, but running him back as a 4 year old with some maturity, dirt experience, and a couple of 10 furlong races under his belt certainly wasn't the most outlandish entry you'll ever see.

What happened was horrible but it's not like the owners were running Rick's Natural Star or some 10 claimer who didn't belong in the race to begin with.

He was getting worse on turf. . .

[Scurlogue Champ]

Champion of what?

I'd guess that it wasn't Aidans choice to run

A two time European champion turf miler who wins the Breeders Cup Classic on dirt would be considered a bit of a champion in my book.

And I'd guess you were wrong, I think he wanted to run the horse.

[NoChanceToDance]

I'm not convinced that Aidan wanted to run him here, either. He was quoted a few weeks before saying that George would go for the Champion Stakes (at Newmarket the weekend before), which looked like a Gr1 he could win, and judging by the result, a Gr1 he would have won.

It was only at the last moment that he was not declared in that race and then a press release said that GW was going for the Classic.

Aidan isn't the sort of person to change his mind. He has a plan for all of his horses and tries to work to that plan as close as possible. I would be very surprised if it was his decision to run him at Monmouth, especially in the Classic. He is employed by the Coolmore bosses, i quite think they made the decision, not Aidan..... and there is a chance that it was against Aidan's choice.

I quite think that was the same with Dylan Thomas. There was never ANY talk of running in the BC Turf after they said he's run in the Arc. I remember having this conversation with someone a month or two ago. I said if they ran in the Arc, they wouldn't go to the BC, not when there is only 20 days inbetween. Even right before the Arc they said America wasn't really on the agenda. They said if he won the Arc (we all know he did) that would be the end for him. If he didn't win, they would "consider" the BC for him. So, naturally, after he won i just thought he had been retired. Yet about three days later they had confirmed him for the BC Turf. The decision seemed to come right out of the blue.

My guess would be that John Magnier wanted as many runners as possible for the BC this year.

Judging from news reports after George's tragic injury, there were no words between O'Brien and Magnier. Aidan (along with family) left Monmouth very quickly after the incident.

[johnny pinwheel]

it comes down to running sound horses. any horse that doesn't start for months or retires and comes back. should be questioned. the greed factor is a problem. they made discreet cat 7/5, he has not won since 8/2006. do you think hes the same horse? well they ran him. then the ones that are good and healthy ,well most of them will be retired. street sense,hard spun,curlin will say bye ,bye. gw was impotent so back to racing he went. these rich folks used to race for pride. not the bottom line. who pays the price ?horses like GW and the fans thats who!

[Cannon Shell]

A two time European champion turf miler who wins the Breeders Cup Classic on dirt would be considered a bit of a champion in my book.

And I'd guess you were wrong, I think he wanted to run the horse.
How do you know I'm guessing...

I cant wait to see the ads in the Bloodhorse

HORSE GOES TO STUD>>>CHAMPION IN SCURLOGUES BOOK

[parsixfarms]

George earned his retirement. Having made the decision last year that his racing career was over, the Coolmore group should be ashamed of themselves for bringing him back to the races, solely because they concluded that he could not be the "profit center" for them that they envisioned. Of course, shame is in short supply with this outfit; after all, they are the prime American backers of Patrick Biancone - and why do I suspect that on November 1, 2008, he'll be training for them again.

[Cannon Shell]

Comments from leading Irish trainer Jim Bolger about George Washington, the Breeders' Cup, drugs, and American racing:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41736
Naturally they blame everything except the EUROPEAN connections for the breakdown. The fact that an overmatched, former champion whose form had deteoriated and who was being ridden and whipped down the backstretch of the race to keep up is ignored.

This is supposedly one of those non drug, sound european horses that brokedown, not our drug infested, weak American horses.

[Kasept]

they usually do veer off but b4 my "board break" i noticed the overzealous moderators consolidating and moving posts right and left...maybe they got tired of it but, even tho this horse was not one i followed religiously, i still hope this thread doesn't denigrate into an idiotic discussion of the idiotic comments in the article
First of all, the 'idiotic comments' aren't emanating from the article...

Jim Bolger has every right to make those comments and they're being echoed by many other important European conditioners and media members. And they're absolutely timely, germane and important fodder for discussion here.

[fpsoxfan]

The article simply reflects how many people deal with many things these days. Point the finger towards someone or something. It was a tragedy. It's part of the sport we love. I wish it would never happen, but it does.

[Danzig]

it comes down to running sound horses. any horse that doesn't start for months or retires and comes back. should be questioned. the greed factor is a problem. they made discreet cat 7/5, he has not won since 8/2006. do you think hes the same horse? well they ran him. then the ones that are good and healthy ,well most of them will be retired. street sense,hard spun,curlin will say bye ,bye. gw was impotent so back to racing he went. these rich folks used to race for pride. not the bottom line. who pays the price ?horses like GW and the fans thats who!

i bet a year ago when they retired gw, you screamed greed. you probably wanted him to run at four, i know i did. so now greed brought him back?
you know, citation missed his entire four year old season. came back like gangbusters at five. that's just one example.
there are other horses who have run well past the age of four, or have been retired and then brought back to racing for one reason or another.

had gw not been sub-fertile, he'd not have come back. but we're talking about a four year old in his prime, not a much older horse. he missed a few months, probably not much more of a layoff then what flower alley had between his bc and his first race the next season. he was multiple group one placed this year, not exactly scraping the bottom of the barrel.
should he have run the race, in hindsight we'd all say no. but there were no indications leading up to the race that he shouldn't go. no one would have done as they had, had they known then what we all know now. but no one had that benefit.

[Cannon Shell]

First of all, the 'idiotic comments' aren't emanating from the article...

Jim Bolger has every right to make those comments and they're being echoed by many other important European conditioners and media members. And they're absolutely timely, germane and important fodder for discussion here.
We also have the right to tell him that if the Euros suddenly dont like our money then they dont have to come. If our racing is so bad then stay home. They certainly have no problem sending their bleeders over here. If they dont like the track conditions than they should stay home or scratch.

[Danzig]

i suppose bolger thinks poly would have made all the difference for george, and the 'turf tracks without the drugs' comment must be his reasoning for the euros going 0- this year.

[Cannon Shell]

i suppose bolger thinks poly would have made all the difference for george, and the 'turf tracks without the drugs' comment must be his reasoning for the euros going 0- this year.
typical bs and I hate to tell him that Churchill and Belmont which are the 2 likely choices for the next BC's are still dirt.

[Danzig]

typical bs and I hate to tell him that Churchill and Belmont which are the 2 likely choices for the next BC's are still dirt.

i wonder how things will go next year on the all weather.....will more euros come do you suppose?
call me crazy, but i'd imagine they'll still be calling the vets for the evil drugs upon landing....

[Cannon Shell]

i wonder how things will go next year on the all weather.....will more euros come do you suppose?
call me crazy, but i'd imagine they'll still be calling the vets for the evil drugs upon landing....
I dont know if they will come because they dont like
1. Weather - too hot
2. Cali - too far
3. Turns too tight
4. Turf too hard (though this year it was too soft! go figure euros complaining about soft turf)
5. Money exchange is bad
6. Too many drugs
7. wrong kind of synthetic track
8. no free plane rides

[brockguy]

I dont know if they will come because they dont like
1. Weather - too hot
2. Cali - too far
3. Turns too tight
4. Turf too hard (though this year it was too soft! go figure euros complaining about soft turf)
5. Money exchange is bad
6. Too many drugs
7. wrong kind of synthetic track
8. no free plane rides

i should be there though :)

if its marketed properly to Aussie and Asian horses, next years BC could be the best yet..

[Cannon Shell]

i should be there though :)

if its marketed properly to Aussie and Asian horses, next years BC could be the best yet..
You are honorary Yankee...you dont really count!

[NoChanceToDance]

I dont know if they will come because they dont like
1. Weather - too hot
2. Cali - too far
3. Turns too tight
4. Turf too hard (though this year it was too soft! go figure euros complaining about soft turf)
5. Money exchange is bad
6. Too many drugs
7. wrong kind of synthetic track
8. no free plane rides

I think we will send a number of horses to Santa Anita. Some will be put off because of the heat and the distance, but overall we have had quite a good record there in recent years, i believe.

Extremes of turf conditions is always a problem. The only horses that didn't want a soft surface this year was Dylan Thomas. Unlike most european turf horses, the turf cannot be firm enough for him. As Aidan commented, he needs it like "concrete".

Exchange rate will hopefully be better than it is right now. Why is the dollar so weak at the moment???? We are getting a dollar for around 30 pence right now. I have never seen it so weak for so many months.

Our racing country is far too kind by giving free transport for overseas horses to our big meets, having said that they do it in Dubai, too.

One option i have heard for the Breeders Cup "world championships" is to split it into two. Have the turf races in europe or even asia, and the dirt races in America. I think then it really could be called a "world championship" event.

Although the surface doesn't seem to have any direct link with the George Washington injury, vets have said that it isn't impossible that it did cause some ill-effects. I didn't realise that when a dirt track gets so sloppy, the horses are basically running on the hard base, which could have led to the fracture becoming an open fracture with the added concussion going through the leg.

[Riot]

If someone takes a great-performing horse off the track at three and puts him into the shed, they are greedy bastards.

If they take the non-useful horse out of the shed and put the good race horse back on the track to continue to race, they are greedy bastards.

If a horse isn't a top fav for a race he shouldn't be in there.

Fields are too short because everyone is afraid of being beat and pulls their horse. We deserve better - put those longer shots back in there.

If a horse breaks down, it's the connection's fault - they knew the horse was at risk.

Or it's the fault of the dirt. Or the poly. Or the turf. Or the breeding. Or drug abuse.

I forgot this one: if you are one of the top ten horses in the country in your division, you're still nothing but crap if your Beyer is 5 points less than those better, and you don't deserve to race with them!

This sport is so confusing.

[Danzig]

If someone takes a great-performing horse off the track at three and puts him into the shed, they are greedy bastards.

If they take the non-useful horse out of the shed and put the good race horse back on the track to continue to race, they are greedy bastards.

If a horse isn't a top fav for a race he shouldn't be in there.

Fields are too short because everyone is afraid of being beat and pulls their horse. We deserve better - put those longer shots back in there.

If a horse breaks down, it's the connection's fault - they knew the horse was at risk.

Or it's the fault of the dirt. Or the poly. Or the turf. Or the breeding. Or drug abuse.

This sport is so confusing.

will all that fit in a 'nutshell'?

[ArlJim78]

It looks to be just a slap at US racing.

as far as the drugs issue, okay yes thats a valid one that we have to deal with, and maybe we aren't the example for the world. but the event that prompted his comment was the breakdown of a European horse, so I don't get the tie in to drugs.

and as far as the surface goes, advocating polytrack for all future BC's, can he actually be making the leap that using polytrack for the BC will guarantee no breakdowns will occurr? is he implying that there are no breakdowns over there on polytrack? and is polytrack safer than turf? if so why don't they run all the big european races on poly for safety? if its like he says and polytrack "separates the men from the boys" then why don't they lead the way?

as most people know on here I think polytrack might be safer in the long run, but a breakdown can occur anytime on any surface.

why should we take these comments seriously? I'm guessing he would have had nothing to say had George pulled off an upset and won the thing.

[Riot]

will all that fit in a 'nutshell'?

What would we talk about if we all thought alike? ;)

George was beautiful - loved his face.

[Danzig]

What would we talk about if we all thought alike? ;)

George was beautiful - loved his face.

well, on this issue you and i would be talking about those who didn't agree with us...

and he was a beauty.

[brockguy]

We will not see top-notch Aussies in America at the end of October because of the Spring Carnival; shipping Asian horses here at that time is tricky because of the Hong Kong races six weeks later, and with the dirt races being conducted on a synthetic surface next year, you probably eliminate the top Japanese dirt horses.

It's a great thought, though; I'd love to see more international participation here for the Breeders' Cup, as we see in Dubai and Hong Kong's international series.

as usual, youre spot on.. i suppose one problem with the Japanese is that if they do travel, they have to travel for either big purses (ie Dubai) or huge prestige (ie Europe). They see Europe and in particular, the Arc as the holy grail of racing and subsidise horses trying to achieve that goal. The Breeders Cup is not held in the same regard. Do the Breeders Cup even have a PR guy like Ascot's Nick Smith who goes around the world trying to get connections to race??

[Cannon Shell]

as usual, youre spot on.. i suppose one problem with the Japanese is that if they do travel, they have to travel for either big purses (ie Dubai) or huge prestige (ie Europe). They see Europe and in particular, the Arc as the holy grail of racing and subsidise horses trying to achieve that goal. The Breeders Cup is not held in the same regard. Do the Breeders Cup even have a PR guy like Ascot's Nick Smith who goes around the world trying to get connections to race??
Byk

[Riot]

Jay Hoveday wrote an interesting editorial piece in DRF tonight ("Horses Put Needlessly At Risk"). He kind of goes here and there within the piece (I think he is just upset, as nearly all are, at the loss of a great horse while racing).

But he does say the event should be delayed if a track is in the same condition in the future (while also noting the BC horses that have broken down while on different surfaces, at different venues, at different tracks).

What constitutes a "safe enough" track? Should dirt racing be cancelled if it rains significantly?

[Danzig]

we've lost more horses on better days condition-wise.
knee jerk reactions imo.

[JJP]

I blame the greed of the connections for this one. The horse had proven all he needed to do on grass; despite the fact he was never in contention in last year's Classic (while in much better form) they expected him to make the quantum leap to not only handle dirt, but slop........against the top dirt runners in the world. I agree with Vic Stauffer's comment before the race: "George Washington might be the worst 10-1 shot I've ever seen". It was an ignorant decision to race the horse on dirt and now they must live with their decision.

[richard burch]

when i wrote this post i did'nt think it would evolve to this. i really was'nt emotional when i posted it but i did have three vodkas in me.

the frustration of seeing another great horse go down...and in those conditions made me angry. i havent changed my opinion on this but i respect all of the different views.

i love this sport and i don't want it to be tarnished by an event i still feel did'nt have to happen on racings biggest day.

for me, it's about keeping horses alive during and after there careers.

ie: john henry

[richard burch]

I blame the greed of the connections for this one. The horse had proven all he needed to do on grass; despite the fact he was never in contention in last year's Classic (while in much better form) they expected him to make the quantum leap to not only handle dirt, but slop........against the top dirt runners in the world. I agree with Vic Stauffer's comment before the race: "George Washington might be the worst 10-1 shot I've ever seen". It was an ignorant decision to race the horse on dirt and now they must live with their decision.
...

[JJP]

He was in the race for one reason: not because it was the best spot but because if by some miracle and he won or ran 2nd or even 3rd, he would've enhanced his stud value.

Bolger's comments are laughable. I would equate it to Bobby Frankel or Todd Pletcher saying the Epsom Derby is meaningless because it often isn't run on firm turf.

[Kasept]

It looks to be just a slap at US racing.

as far as the drugs issue, okay yes thats a valid one that we have to deal with, and maybe we aren't the example for the world. but the event that prompted his comment was the breakdown of a European horse, so I don't get the tie in to drugs.

and as far as the surface goes, advocating polytrack for all future BC's, can he actually be making the leap that using polytrack for the BC will guarantee no breakdowns will occurr? is he implying that there are no breakdowns over there on polytrack? and is polytrack safer than turf? if so why don't they run all the big european races on poly for safety? if its like he says and polytrack "separates the men from the boys" then why don't they lead the way?

as most people know on here I think polytrack might be safer in the long run, but a breakdown can occur anytime on any surface.

why should we take these comments seriously? I'm guessing he would have had nothing to say had George pulled off an upset and won the thing.
Jim,

It is a slap at US racing.. and one well-meant. And deserved. We're an embarassment on the International front in regards to our allowing tons of pharmaceutical enhancements in our horses, not to mention hidden foal surgeries and steroids in our sales yearlings/2yo's, etc.. It's a system totally skewed to greed that's hastened the deterioration of the quality of the racing and is undermining of the integrity of the breed.

And they do lead the way and don't need to run their races on polytrack... They're running on turf except at the all-weather/all-season locales. The comments should be taken seriously because they reflect the contempt that's out there for what is an increasingly inferior product on track in this country. That's fueled by increasingly fragile horses that are babied by the training community due to the need of the owners to feed right back into the perverted financial machine of the breeding side. It's a vicious circle.

[sumitas]

The general issue is integrity and safety of the horse and rider. American horse racing does have a bad reputation for lack of safety and the over use of drugs. Full disclosure of any horse at auction must be enforced and the sooner the better.

[Cannon Shell]

Jim,

It is a slap at US racing.. and one well-meant. And deserved. We're an embarassment on the International front in regards to our allowing tons of pharmaceutical enhancements in our horses, not to mention hidden foal surgeries and steroids in our sales yearlings/2yo's, etc.. It's a system totally skewed to greed that's hastened the deterioration of the quality of the racing and is undermining of the integrity of the breed.

And they do lead the way and don't need to run their races on polytrack... They're running on turf except at the all-weather/all-season locales. The comments should be taken seriously because they reflect the contempt that's out there for what is an increasingly inferior product on track in this country. That's fueled by increasingly fragile horses that are babied by the training community due to the need of the owners to feed right back into the perverted financial machine of the breeding side. It's a vicious circle.Coolmore and Darley are not American based outfits...

Personally I dont care what the euros or others think. They have no problem coming over for our races and the big money purses. They have no problems coming over and buying our breeding stock and yearlings. Sheik Mo has no problem since he is focused so much on the American market in recent years in both breeding and racing. They have no problem taking our money for their castoffs especially the ones who need medication like Lasix. They have no problem when so many of their riders (ex boys/girls) come over here looking for better opportunites. They never particularly cared about dirt racing until now.

Maybe they should look into their own system of racing outside the top stakes where 1/2 the field isn't even trying in order to get a lower handicap. Our leading jockey is not on trial for race fixing. Maybe they should try to fix their own house where maidens run for crap purses. Maybe they should have theri own Breeders Cup and do with it whatever they want. Run it on turf, dirt, poly, fibresand, whatever.

Remind Jim Bolger that we dont need them, racing in this country did just fine pre breeders cup and pre polytrack.

I have no problem with the european tracks, horses, or horseman. As a matter of fact I like going over there and love Newmarket. But they have no right to tell us what to do or how to do it if they participate in a few select events a year.

By the way will Mr. Bolger be boycotting the Dubai festival because of that dreaded dirt?

[Cannon Shell]

The general issue is integrity and safety of the horse and rider. American horse racing does have a bad reputation for lack of safety and the over use of drugs. Full disclosure of any horse at auction must be enforced and the sooner the better.
1 breakdown BC weekend...a euro (non drug) horse...


Does everyone think drugs in horses is a new thing?

[ArlJim78]

Jim,

It is a slap at US racing.. and one well-meant. And deserved. We're an embarassment on the International front in regards to our allowing tons of pharmaceutical enhancements in our horses, not to mention hidden foal surgeries and steroids in our sales yearlings/2yo's, etc.. It's a system totally skewed to greed that's hastened the deterioration of the quality of the racing and is undermining of the integrity of the breed.

And they do lead the way and don't need to run their races on polytrack... They're running on turf except at the all-weather/all-season locales. The comments should be taken seriously because they reflect the contempt that's out there for what is an increasingly inferior product on track in this country. That's fueled by increasingly fragile horses that are babied by the training community due to the need of the owners to feed right back into the perverted financial machine of the breeding side. It's a vicious circle.
I still don't get what it has to do with George Washington. He is not part of the inferior product you are speaking about I assume, after all he was bred in Ireland. Our top horses by and large all had very solid healthy campaigns. Heck this year it would look like we're the model to follow, not to denigrate. I'm not saying there isn't a big problem, for sure there is. I don't know what the answers are to that though.

I would be more inclined to take it seriously if the remarks weren't made just after the superior euro's were shut out at the breeders cup by our inferior product, it just has the sound of sour grapes to me. It sounds like an attempt to blame America for this. maybe i'm reading to much into it but thats what I hear in those words.
Why was this the moment for Mr. Bolger to offer remedies for US racing?
Did he speak to the issue that George Washington didn't seem to belong in the race? was he really prepared for a 10F dirt race? I said over and over before the race that I didn't understand why the horse was running. It was the wrong distance, wrong surface, and the horse was obviously not currently at a competitive level with our top dirt routers.

Okay if we are to listen and take this seriously, are you in favor of running all future Classics on polytrack?

it just bothers me for anyone to use a particular breakdown to try to prove a complex point. what immediate conclusions should Americans have made about euro racing when Horatio Nelson was fatally injured in the Epsom Derby last year for the same connections? it was on turf and i guess no drugs were involved.

[MisterB]

Irish Trainer: Breeders' Cup Shouldn't Be Run on Dirt

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41736

[Scurlogue Champ]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41750&source=rss

[Coach Pants]

Yeah lets keep listening to the Brits. Before you know it we'll all dress like this...

http://www.blakeneymanor.com/images/carryon/fop.jpg

[MisterB]

Lets not run the triple crown on dirt either. Give me a break.

If GW won the race, the Brits would still be drunk

[NoChanceToDance]

Lets not run the triple crown on dirt either. Give me a break.

If GW won the race, the Brits would still be drunk

That was never going to happen.

[brockguy]

first of all big difference between brits and irish!! Bolger had said this before but obviously with the heightened media attention on dirt surrounding GWs passing, his comments and opinions have been re-raised. Its a controversial view and I dont neccessarily agree with it, but I certainly believe that he has every right to say it. Furthermore, Bolger has long campaigned for outriders at races over here, like ye guys do...

Each country has their own specific problems regarding racing and I think nations can learn from one another to try improve racing as a whole.

[NoChanceToDance]

This will stir the pot even further, but as many of you won't read Racing Post, i thought i would post it here. I'm sure this will also get some strong opinions from both ends of the scale......


by Andrew Scutts
.

MICHAEL DICKINSON leapt to the defence of Monmouth Park on Tuesday, while at the same time expressing "my wish that last Saturday is the last time the Breeders' Cup races will be run on dirt".

George Washington's death due to injuries sustained in the Classic, the second lowest Breeders' Cup attendance and a 43.5 per cent reduction year-on-year in on-course wagering, conspired to leave some observers questioning whether the event had lost its lustre.

Dickinson, the legendary British jumps trainer who moved to the US 20 years ago, has patented Tapeta - Latin for 'carpet' - an artificial surface which competes for business from racecourses and trainers with Polytrack and Cushion Track, among others.

His call for the end of Breeders' Cup races on traditional dirt surfaces must be viewed within that context, but his opinions on the dangers of running on a dirt track following heavy rain are widely held, including by Kempton's clerk of the course Brian Clifford.

Dickinson said: "The science behind the dirt track is over 100 years old and hopelessly outdated. It is well documented, by numerous scientific papers, that wet dirt tracks cause more injuries.

"This is reinforced by trainers' daily habits. On a typical US track, after rain there can be only four horses working. On day two of a sloppy track, there can still be only four horses working, but if day three is dry there will be 300 working.

"Some have suggested that racing on the sloppy dirt track last Saturday was not visually thrilling but, even more important, the betting handle was down by a huge amount. It became more of a guessing game."

Dickinson, though, suggested events at Monmouth Park constitute a one-off blip in the 24-year history of the Breeders' Cup.

He said: "No dirt track can be good after three inches of rain. Anywhere, in fact - Cheltenham, Ascot or Newmarket - is going to be a mess.
"Monmouth tried hard and put a lot of money into it, so you have to feel sorry for them. Only last week it was said we'd had the driest October in the US since 1923.

"Their track superintendent, Bob Juliano, is a good friend, and he did the best job possible underdeplorable conditions."

Dickinson added: "It was suggested that had it not been the Breeders' Cup, racing would have been cancelled, but that is not true - America races on sloppy tracks all the time. Only on very rare occasions do we cancel racing because of sloppy tracks."

Next year, the Breeders' Cup will be staged at Santa Anita, with the seven 'dirt' races to be run on a synthetic surface - Cushion Track - for the first time.

In July, the Breeders' Cup board will evaluate responses from racecourses interested in staging the 2009 and 2010 meetings, following their issuing of request for proposals (RFP) earlier this year.

The RFP was sent to leading venues in the US and overseas, though William Farish jnr, Breeders' Cup chairman, said lastweek that he "couldn't envision holding the Breeders' Cup overseas".

George Washington's ashes are to be buried at Coolmore's Ashford Stud in Kentucky, according to trainer Aidan O'Brien.

He said on Tuesday: "The last 48 hours have been very tough on everyone. Obviously, losing George was very sad, and a big blow to us all. Conditions at Monmouth Park were completely against our horses.

"Excellent Art and Achill Island both ran good races to finish second in the Mile and the Juvenile. We knew the weather and the ground wouldn't suit Dylan Thomas in the Turf, but we let him take his chance."

[alysheba4]

wow...depressing, no mention of him at the breakfast?.........what a disgrace.

[Benevolus]

You have to give Aiden O'Brien credit for coming over here. Those guys are real sportsman. Rarely do you see top american horses go over there, which is sort of sad.

However, you can't really knock dirt for the problem. If 5 or 6 horses brokedown that day then you have an argument, but one horse brokedown and that is just a very sad reality of the sport. Horses breakdown.

The fact is horses really aren't meant for racing on dirt or synthetic tracks. But maintaining a turf course is expensive and america decided they like dirt racing and that is what is primarily bred for.

The important thing is that horseman are constantly looking for ways to make racing safer for horses.

As for the in the sport, it is a problem because like anything you will eventually have unsound horses ting the breeding sheds, which we already see. It just means horses today are more fragile and can't run as frequently.

[Fearless Leader]

The ONLY ones to blame for the death of George Washington are his connections. A classic winning miler in europe, who was sterile, by the way, had absolutely nothing to gain by running in the classic. Especially not on dirt sloppy, or otherwise. Bad judgement by O'brien. Even worse was the jock continuing to beat the tar out of him when he was spinning his wheels going nowhere.

The connections got what they deserved (poor performances due to greed/arrogance). The only unfortunate part is that it came at the life expense of a super horse.

How dare they lash out at every one and everything associated with American racing and the Breeder's Cup. That outfit busts up more expensive horseflesh than anyone. Talk about living in denial.

[Riot]

The ONLY ones to blame for the death of George Washington are his connections.

Why does someone have to be to "blame"? Accidents do indeed happen, catastrophic injuries do occur in a split second, out of nowhere, with no warning. The horse had a cannon bone condylar fracture as the original injury - that's consistent with an accident.

[Fearless Leader]

Why does someone have to be to "blame"? Accidents do indeed happen, catastrophic injuries do occur in a split second, out of nowhere, with no warning. The horse had a cannon bone condylar fracture as the original injury - that's consistent with an accident.


Ask his connections, they are blaming everything/everyone else.

[Riot]

Ask his connections, they are blaming everything/everyone else.

Where? (I'd like to read it)

[NoChanceToDance]

I don't think anything or anyone is to blame.

Yes, in hindsight the Coolmore team shouldn't have run George OR Dylan, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

What this has raised is the safety of dirt when it becomes very wet. It certainly has opened my eyes. I didn't realise that when it got so sloppy that horses were basically running on the hard base below the actual 'dirt' surface until it was said by the vets who went to the aid of George Washington.

George Was 'climbing' because of the horrific kickback there was on Saturday. Because of him 'climbing' he was more than likely hitting to ground much harder than usual. This may have led to the build up of his injury, it may not. But it certainly couldn't have helped.

Rain is an external constraint, it's out of our hands, but if it rains THAT much on a dirt track, it can become dangerous. I think that is the main cause for concern.

[Danzig]

we already have owners who are afraid to run a horse more than a handful of times, and now every time a horse has an accident, they have to get the finger pointed at them for doing what the fans want?? how the hell does that make sense?
every year horses who generally run on turf attempt the dirt, here, dubai and elsewhere. sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes, sadly, they break down.
anyone remember electrocutionist? how about moon ballad? giant's causeway, arazi, jo'burg, etc, etc...
one horse out of the almost two hundred included in the two days of bc racing has an accident, a bad step, and the blame game begins. absolutely ridiculous. as fans, many of us who've followed this for years, we ought to know better. we know how up and down this game is, yet 'fans' come on here and play this game. and then we're horrified when non fans call us out, and ask how we can be fans of such a 'cruel' sport. and then we join in with the same bs.
is it painful when a horse is lost? absolutely. but this does nothing to improve ANYTHING. that track didn't cause this. a bad step. nothing more. we've seen days of beautiful weather and a fast track, and have had more horses lost in one race than in this two day event. hell, two horses last year in the distaff alone had an injury, one fatal. considering the elements faced in those two days, i'd say those horses did pretty dammed well, a testament to their fitness.

[Cannon Shell]

we already have owners who are afraid to run a horse more than a handful of times, and now every time a horse has an accident, they have to get the finger pointed at them for doing what the fans want?? how the hell does that make sense?
every year horses who generally run on turf attempt the dirt, here, dubai and elsewhere. sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes, sadly, they break down.
anyone remember electrocutionist? how about moon ballad? giant's causeway, arazi, jo'burg, etc, etc...
one horse out of the almost two hundred included in the two days of bc racing has an accident, a bad step, and the blame game begins. absolutely ridiculous. as fans, many of us who've followed this for years, we ought to know better. we know how up and down this game is, yet 'fans' come on here and play this game. and then we're horrified when non fans call us out, and ask how we can be fans of such a 'cruel' sport. and then we join in with the same bs.
is it painful when a horse is lost? absolutely. but this does nothing to improve ANYTHING. that track didn't cause this. a bad step. nothing more. we've seen days of beautiful weather and a fast track, and have had more horses lost in one race than in this two day event. hell, two horses last year in the distaff alone had an injury, one fatal. considering the elements faced in those two days, i'd say those horses did pretty dammed well, a testament to their fitness.
Your writing style has gotten to be eerily like Hooves....

[Danzig]

Your writing style has gotten to be eerily like Hooves....

really?

almost afraid to ask, but is that good or bad??

[Pedigree Ann]

i should be there though :)

if its marketed properly to Aussie and Asian horses, next years BC could be the best yet..

THe best Aussie and NZed horses are never going to come for the BC in late Oct/early Nov. That is when the Spring Festival is taking place in Melbourne - do you think they will choose to fly thousands of miles, put up with the time and season change to gamble on the BC when they could be running in some of the most important and remunerative races on their calendar? We're talking Melbourne Cup, Cox Plate, Epsom H, not to mention the Victoria Derby and Oaks. (Their 3yos won't come anyway because they are just barely 3 - official birthday 1 August.) Would a US owner skip the Met Mile to go run in the Doncaster H in the Sydney Autumn Carnival?

The BC is a 'World Championship" in name only. It's PR, plain and simple. It's not even a North American championship, since horses can be excluded for not being nominated or having a non-nominated sire. Real championships take everybody who qualify on equal terms.

I was paying attention when the BC idea was being kicked around and the original idea was to put up a big enough purse that top horses, especially 3yos, would have an incentive to stay in training into the fall, or come back for another year. The insane inflation of stallion values was driving earlier and earlier retirements and this was designed to be a solution. But some framers feared that stallion owners who knew their stallion's foals were never going to be 10f dirt runners wouldn't nominate, so lowering the pot. Thus, the additional races were devised, which ended up rewarding owners for buying 2yos who won't train on at 3 and horses who run out of gas after 6f.

[Cannon Shell]

really?

almost afraid to ask, but is that good or bad??
Not good or bad but eerie...

[Danzig]

Not good or bad but eerie...
sometimes when i type tho, my fingers can't keep up with the thoughts in my head, so i have disjointed or run on sentences at times.

i think i have a.d.d. too, so that doesn't help!

[Uncle Daddy]

I join the many who are sad to see a champion go down in less than ideal circumstances. He was special last year and watching his replays as a miler had me hoping he could come back and maybe regain his form after 3 races.

Plenty of blame and second guessing to go around

[philcski]

Just watched the replay, the jockey on GW did a terrible job. He was riding him hard halfway through the race and even though he was hopelessly out of it he continued to push him. I'm not advocating pulling a horse up unnecessarily but that was ridiculous. The horse was obviously spinning his wheels, not handling the track.

[ArlJim78]

Just watched the replay, the jockey on GW did a terrible job. He was riding him hard halfway through the race and even though he was hopelessly out of it he continued to push him. I'm not advocating pulling a horse up unnecessarily but that was ridiculous. The horse was obviously spinning his wheels, not handling the track.
this is exactly my thinking, and I don't hear many people or commentators talking about it. When you watch the replay, as soon as they show the field on the backstretch you see Kinane urgently scrubbing on the neck of GW, agressively pushing him on, seemingly with no reaction. in fact, shortly after that Curlin and Street Sense go by him like he was standing still.
Then on through the final turn every horse had passed him save for one, Diamond Stripes who was also hopelessly out of it at that point. As they enter the turn Denman days "George Washington is done, and so is Diamond Stripes". However even though it looked to Denmans eye that he was done, when GW comes to the top of the stretch at least 20 lengths behind the leaders, you can see he is STILL being ridden hard while it looks like like Diamond Stripes is not being pushed anymore since his day was essentially over. For what reason was GW still being hard ridden at that point when he was hopelessly out of it? why wasn't he wrapped up early on after it was clear that he wasn't going to be competitive in any sense of the word. wouldn't it have made sense just to wrap him up and let him gallop home?
don't horses continue to try to follow the riders commands even when they may have nothing left?

it just really irritates me to read all of the euro criticism of the US, drugs, dirt racing, etc, all of it because of the tragic demise of GW, when in my view this horse was not spotted well, mishandled, and apparently ridden to exhaustion on a surface he had never raced on before and at a distance that looked to be beyond what he was comfortable with.

imo at the point when he had no reaction on the backstretch and was being passed after asking him for run, he should have been shut down and as someone else put it "allowed to gallop home to retirement".

[Cajungator26]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDTB2vehFa4

RIP champ.

[Zaf]

Thanks Cajun. That was a awesome tribute. Ditto : RIP Champ.