How would The Classic have been... [Archive]

The Indomitable DrugS

10-27-2007, 07:01 PM

The way Curlin ran - I haven't watched replays and studied charts and done any work on todays races - but I doubt he was beating Curlin today.

While Invasor is obviously a MUCH better horse than Hard Spun....Hard Spun is an underrated horse when he makes the lead....and it was totally shocking with the ease that Curlin passed him - especially considering how Hard Spun had a favorable pace on top of making the lead.

On first impressions - even though everything went the way you'd draw it up forHard Spun...he was no disapointment today at all. I certainly don't think Hard Spun lost anything in defeat...even with the harshest of critics who knew he had it all his way.

Curlin is just plain awesome. I think Invasor's class probably would have willed him past HS though.

Danzig

10-27-2007, 07:02 PM

how many people can't/won't celebrate curlin? i have a hard time with it. honestly, i do. i wish that horse was with practically anyone else.

The Indomitable DrugS

10-27-2007, 07:30 PM

how many people can't/won't celebrate curlin? i have a hard time with it. honestly, i do. i wish that horse was with practically anyone else.

Well - I met Steve Asmussen up here this September - and he seemed to enjoy talking with me...so much so that our conversation carried for over ten minutes and he wasn't even the one who ended it.

So, while he might be a convicted cheater...... he's nice to DrugS. And honestly, isn't that what really matters when judging someone anyway?

In all seriousness - Curlin ran a MONSTER debut race at Gulfstream for a trainer who no one has ever accused of taking advantages. He was all over the racetrack - and his adjusted final time in that maiden victory was faster than seasoned stake horses Nobiz Like Shobiz and Scat Daddy ran in a stake race on the same card.

I think Curlin is a spectacular horse who would have been fine for any competent trainer. I have no problem rooting for him. He isn't a horse who made some hard to explain move-up when switched to a "super trainer" - like a certain 2005 Horse of the Year was.

ateamstupid

10-27-2007, 07:46 PM

how many people can't/won't celebrate curlin? i have a hard time with it. honestly, i do. i wish that horse was with practically anyone else.

Been saying this since the Preakness. Of course it sucks that the horse is managed by criminals, but he's a flat-out superstar nonetheless, and he just completed one of the more impressive seasons I've seen since I started watching racing.

SentToStud

10-27-2007, 07:50 PM

Well - I met Steve Asmussen up here this September - and he seemed to enjoy talking with me...so much so that our conversation carried for over ten minutes and he wasn't even the one who ended it.

So, while he might be a convicted cheater...... he's nice to DrugS. And honestly, isn't that what really matters when judging someone anyway?

In all seriousness - Curlin ran a MONSTER debut race at Gulfstream for a trainer who no one has ever accused of taking advantages. He was all over the racetrack - and his adjusted final time in that maiden victory was faster than seasoned stake horses Nobiz Like Shobiz and Scat Daddy ran in a stake race on the same card.

I think Curlin is a spectacular horse who would have been fine for any competent trainer. I have no problem rooting for him. He isn't a horse who made some hard to explain move-up when switched to a "super trainer" - like a certain 2005 Horse of the Year was.

Why the coyish slam on Dutrow? Why not say it straight up? Go on and say there's no way he could improve a horse trained by Reinstedler and that the horse was busy training himself the first 3/4 of the year when he was winless.

What exactly do you think Dutrow did to the horse to improve him?

While you're at it, fill me in on how he kept moving Kip Deville up and won a half dozen G1s with Silver Train, ok?

Dutrow's got 3 wins from 6 total Breeders Cup starters.

Maybe you should go interview him?

Most important, why in the world would you be the one to cut short time spent with the trainer of the HOTY? If you had a date with Rosemary, Jr., that's one thing. Anything else, ....

TitanSooner

10-27-2007, 07:51 PM

Danzig

10-27-2007, 08:21 PM

Been saying this since the Preakness. Of course it sucks that the horse is managed by criminals, but he's a flat-out superstar nonetheless, and he just completed one of the more impressive seasons I've seen since I started watching racing.

yeah, he's good. makes it that much harder to appreciate.

Danzig

10-27-2007, 08:24 PM

Well - I met Steve Asmussen up here this September - and he seemed to enjoy talking with me...so much so that our conversation carried for over ten minutes and he wasn't even the one who ended it.

So, while he might be a convicted cheater...... he's nice to DrugS. And honestly, isn't that what really matters when judging someone anyway?

In all seriousness - Curlin ran a MONSTER debut race at Gulfstream for a trainer who no one has ever accused of taking advantages. He was all over the racetrack - and his adjusted final time in that maiden victory was faster than seasoned stake horses Nobiz Like Shobiz and Scat Daddy ran in a stake race on the same card.

I think Curlin is a spectacular horse who would have been fine for any competent trainer. I have no problem rooting for him. He isn't a horse who made some hard to explain move-up when switched to a "super trainer" - like a certain 2005 Horse of the Year was.

i don't care if he could charm a free nookie from a hooker, he's a many times over cheater.
as for the horse, yeah, he's good and has been so from the get go. dammed shame that guy gets to celebrate as tho he had something to do with it. so, as always with that one, i try to focus on the exploits of curlin, not the fact that a certain oh so charismatic trainer gets a windfall from the horse being so good.
would be much easier to stomach had he stayed with ms pitts.

Merlinsky

10-27-2007, 08:37 PM

As much as I want to grumble, I can't argue with a time of 2:00.59. A second and a half faster than Invasor last year. So there's no way to make his connections seem more warm and fuzzy? Would beer goggles help?

The ESPN folks sure seemed to have trouble liking those people. Rather surprised they didn't try to gloss over it but too many informed people would smell a rat. There aren't just laypersons watching for whom to create a BS feel good tale.

Danzig

10-27-2007, 08:41 PM

As much as I want to grumble, I can't argue with a time of 2:00.59. A second and a half faster than Invasor last year. So there's no way to make his connections seem more warm and fuzzy? Would beer goggles help?

i don't like to compare times from different tracks, surfaces, pace, etc.
as for beer goggles, it would take a LOT of beer.
i think curlin is top notch. but his humans.....ugh

pass the beer.

as for the espn folk, they aren't the only ones. is it just me, or was the grandstand somewhat subdued at races end?

Merlinsky

10-27-2007, 08:51 PM

as for the espn folk, they aren't the only ones. is it just me, or was the grandstand somewhat subdued at races end?

Not sure if they were subdued over Curlin or not. Remember the screens were out for George. Hard to get too excited.

Danzig

10-27-2007, 09:02 PM

Not sure if they were subdued over Curlin or not. Remember the screens were out for George. Hard to get too excited.

yeah, that's true. poor george.

The Indomitable DrugS

10-27-2007, 09:24 PM

Why the coyish slam on Dutrow?

The '05 and soon to be named '07 Horse of the Year both were trained by guys who served fairly lengthy suspensions during their championship season.

In my opinion - Saint Liam (rest in peace) was a horse who wouldn't have been near as dominant for most competent trainers. I believe Curlin, on the other hand, would be.

Dutrow is the best move-up artist at the top level the East has to offer.

If you remember out West - some red-hot Turf Paradice trainer named Jeff Mullins ran a very troubled and narrowly beaten 3rd at big odds with a horse named Lusty Latin in the '02 Santa Anita Derby.

Mullins proceeded to win each of the next three Santa Anita Derby's with crazy longshots.

I'm personally skeptical of how accomplished some of these horses would have been in the hands of competent trainers who aren't move-up artists.

MaTH716

10-27-2007, 09:32 PM

i don't like to compare times from different tracks, surfaces, pace, etc.
as for beer goggles, it would take a LOT of beer.
i think curlin is top notch. but his humans.....ugh

pass the beer.

as for the espn folk, they aren't the only ones. is it just me, or was the grandstand somewhat subdued at races end?

I think after the last race people rushed the hell out of there. Especially if they were there the day before and knew that the traffic getting out was ridiculous. I bet you that half of the people in the winners circle did not even know that GW broke down. I know I didn't.

dalakhani

10-28-2007, 08:56 AM

The '05 and soon to be named '07 Horse of the Year both were trained by guys who served fairly lengthy suspensions during their championship season.

In my opinion - Saint Liam (rest in peace) was a horse who wouldn't have been near as dominant for most competent trainers. I believe Curlin, on the other hand, would be.

Dutrow is the best move-up artist at the top level the East has to offer.

If you remember out West - some red-hot Turf Paradice trainer named Jeff Mullins ran a very troubled and narrowly beaten 3rd at big odds with a horse named Lusty Latin in the '02 Santa Anita Derby.

Mullins proceeded to win each of the next three Santa Anita Derby's with crazy longshots.

I'm personally skeptical of how accomplished some of these horses would have been in the hands of competent trainers who aren't move-up artists.

Just to add, Lusty Latin ended up running for cheap tags for every Juice guy in the mid atlantic.

cmorioles

10-28-2007, 09:13 AM

Invasor would not have beaten Curlin.

dalakhani

10-28-2007, 09:16 AM

Invasor would not have beaten Curlin.

Really? How do you know?

GenuineRisk

10-28-2007, 09:18 AM

I can't help but wish the legal issues don't resolve soon- the longer they take to resolve, the longer Curlin will keep running, I hope!

cmorioles

10-28-2007, 09:30 AM

Really? How do you know?

Of course I don't know, it is an opinion. But the numbers rarely lie, and Curlin has been consistently faster than Invasor.

dalakhani

10-28-2007, 09:45 AM

Of course I don't know, it is an opinion. But the numbers rarely lie, and Curlin has been consistently faster than Invasor.

Numbers lie all the time...look at lawyer ron.

Wasnt bernardini consistently faster as well?

Cajungator26

10-28-2007, 09:54 AM

sirbarton

10-28-2007, 09:55 AM

The way Curlin ran - I haven't watched replays and studied charts and done any work on todays races - but I doubt he was beating Curlin today.

While Invasor is obviously a MUCH better horse than Hard Spun....Hard Spun is an underrated horse when he makes the lead....and it was totally shocking with the ease that Curlin passed him - especially considering how Hard Spun had a favorable pace on top of making the lead.
On first impressions - even though everything went the way you'd draw it up forHard Spun...he was no disapointment today at all. I certainly don't think Hard Spun lost anything in defeat...even with the harshest of critics who knew he had it all his way.

Curlin is just plain awesome. I think Invasor's class probably would have willed him past HS though.
:23 and :45 and 4 is way too quick of a pace for 10F. I thought Hard Spun did a heck of a job to hold second after going that fast early on.

Cajungator26

10-28-2007, 09:57 AM

:23 and :45 and 4 is way too quick of a pace for 10F. I thought Hard Spun did a heck of a job to hold second after going that fast early on.

Hard Spun is an impressive horse. I think it's a shame we won't see him run again because he's a colt that seems to put in an awesome effort almost every time. I love horses like that.

Danzig

10-28-2007, 09:59 AM

Numbers lie all the time...look at lawyer ron.

Wasnt bernardini consistently faster as well?

when did they start giving out trophies for best numbers??

would have been nice to have invasor out there. he never did get enough credit for everything he did.

sirbarton

10-28-2007, 10:06 AM

Hard Spun is an impressive horse. I think it's a shame we won't see him run again because he's a colt that seems to put in an awesome effort almost every time. I love horses like that.
He tries hard every time, no doubt. That's one of the things I like about Octave. She gives her very best every time. I had HS across--wish he could have gone the early fractons in something like 24, 48 and 1:12. He might have had more left when Curlin came to him. Although the way the winner finished he would have been hard to hold off regardless of early pace.

avance2000

10-28-2007, 10:15 AM

Numbers lie all the time...look at lawyer ron.

Wasnt bernardini consistently faster as well?
yeah, but fraudardini sucked.
curlin certainly would have given invasor a tougher battle than old bernarfraudi did, but as to who would win between invasor and curlin, i think it is tough to say. if they raced 10 times i think they would each win a few, but i don't think invasor could have beaten curlin yesterday. he ran brilliantly.

2Hot4TV

10-28-2007, 10:20 AM

...if Invasor didn't have his injury and ran today? Would have been an interesting year...
Hope he liked mud.

Danzig

10-28-2007, 10:27 AM

yeah, but fraudardini sucked.
curlin certainly would have given invasor a tougher battle than old bernarfraudi did, but as to who would win between invasor and curlin, i think it is tough to say. if they raced 10 times i think they would each win a few, but i don't think invasor could have beaten curlin yesterday. he ran brilliantly.

hard to take your observations seriously when you start by saying bernardini...oh, i'm sorry, fraudardini sucked.:rolleyes:
altho i wasn't one who thought the horse walked on water, he certainly didn't suck. far from it.

ateamstupid

10-28-2007, 12:49 PM

Two different tracks, though...

Considering that Midnight Lute ran the Sprint in 1:09 and the Distaff went in 1:50, I'd say 2:00 2/5 is pretty freakin' impressive.

The Indomitable DrugS

10-28-2007, 01:01 PM

I had HS across--wish he could have gone the early fractons in something like 24, 48 and 1:12.

Those fractions in the BC Classic over that glib race track?

You're kidding right?

Hard Spun was cruising on an uncontested lead. He was very comfortable and never pressured by anyone.

Had the pace been as laughably slow (considering the speed of the track) as you say - the entire field would have been very tightly bunched up and most of the riders of the horses in the top flight would be checking their rank mounts.

Coco Belle sat a neck off of a 20 4/5th first quarter and set a 43 1/5th half mile in race #2 - and still won paying $13 to win. War Pass went 45 2/5 for the half and won the 8.5 furlong BC Juvie with disdain ease.

If you think the Breeders Cup Classic is going in 24 and 48 over that track - I just don't know what to say.

pgardn

10-28-2007, 01:29 PM

Hard Spun could not have asked for much more.
He does try hard and never gives up.
He just cant stay with the real class at 10 f and the
real class is Curlin. That was a great run. Street Sense
had the same sort of setup except he went rail.

It is hard to say what Invasor would have done on this track.
I personally think we would have seen a battle for the ages had
he been in this race.

SniperSB23

10-28-2007, 04:41 PM

Invasor would not have beaten Curlin.

I would have loved to see it. I think in the Dubai World Cup Invasor would have had at least a 119 Beyer if they produced figures so he was certainly capable of going that fast. Also, no one ever looked Invasor in the eye in the stretch and then beat him which we have seen happen to Curlin.

Thunder Gulch

10-28-2007, 06:09 PM

I think Bernardini was the same as Curlin and Invasor waxed him. Actually, Bernardini was more dominant through the summer than Curlin by a wide margin.

Crown@club

10-28-2007, 06:11 PM

...if Invasor didn't have his injury and ran today? Would have been an interesting year...

We would have gotten better odds on Curlin!

SOREHOOF

10-28-2007, 06:37 PM

Actually, Bernardini was more dominant through the summer than Curlin by a wide margin.[/QUOTE]
Curlin faced tougher horses than Bernardini. Curlin is no INVASOR though. If he races next year we'll see how he stacks up.

Dunbar

10-28-2007, 06:43 PM

I can't help but wish the legal issues don't resolve soon- the longer they take to resolve, the longer Curlin will keep running, I hope!

That's the way I feel, too. I had no trouble rooting for Curlin once it got down to Curlin, Street Sense, and Hard Spun. With the latter two definitely ending their careers prematurely, give me the one who at least MIGHT be around next year.

I will say this for Asmussen--he was very gracious toward Helen Pitts in his ESPN post-race interview.

--Dunbar

pgardn

10-28-2007, 06:43 PM

I think Bernardini was the same as Curlin and Invasor waxed him. Actually, Bernardini was more dominant through the summer than Curlin by a wide margin.

Bernardini did not even run in the Derby.
And he was had a very diff. running style compared to Curlin.
Curlin and Invasor ran the same type of race.
Bernardini did not face any horse as good as Street Sense
or Rags in his TC races.

The Indomitable DrugS

10-28-2007, 06:49 PM

I think Bernardini was the same as Curlin and Invasor waxed him. Actually, Bernardini was more dominant through the summer than Curlin by a wide margin.

Curlin's performance in the BC Classic was obviously better than Bernardini's.

This isn't about who is better than who - Invasor only beat a hanging Sun King by a head in the Whitney when he had difficult circumstances.

With any kind of circumstances he would have needed a career best race to beat Curlin yesterday.

Cajungator26

10-28-2007, 06:50 PM

Considering that Midnight Lute ran the Sprint in 1:09 and the Distaff went in 1:50, I'd say 2:00 2/5 is pretty freakin' impressive.

Do you know what the times were for the Sprint and Distaff last year, Oey? I just think comparing Churchill Downs to Monmouth is apples and oranges. Who is to say Curlin would have ran that exact same time over a different track?

I agree that the time was impressive. Definitely not taking anything away from Curlin, but hard to say how he would have stacked up against Invasor.

Danzig

10-28-2007, 06:51 PM

Curlin's performance in the BC Classic was obviously better than Bernardini's.

This isn't about who is better than who - Invasor only beat a hanging Sun King by a head in the Whitney when he had difficult circumstances.

With any kind of circumstances he would have needed a career best race to beat Curlin yesterday.

or vice versa

The Indomitable DrugS

10-28-2007, 06:53 PM

Bernardini did not face any horse as good as Street Sense
or Rags in his TC races.

Bernardini only ran in one triple crown race....

And Invasor might have faced better horses than Street Sense in Uruguay.

.... My bad, no sense baiting ARyan since he's surely fixated on a lame Red Sox game.

SOREHOOF

10-28-2007, 06:55 PM

It SHOULD take a career best to win the BC Classic!

bogeydaman

10-28-2007, 06:55 PM

The Indomitable DrugS

10-28-2007, 06:56 PM

or vice versa

Curlin, a 3-year-old making just his 9th career start...and 3rd start off of a layoff was probably more likely to deliever a career best race than a 5-year-old.

The Indomitable DrugS

10-28-2007, 07:00 PM

IMO I don't see how you can say the horse was "cruising" on an uncontested lead. There were 4 horses (AGS, LR, DS, and GW) trying to get to Hard Spun for the first 6 furlongs. Those 4 horses ended up getting beat a minumum of 24 lengths by Hard Spun. The only other 3 horses that were in the same area code as HS when the race was over were the horses that were "outrun early". Just because a horse was not head and head with HS by no means did he have an early lead. Just look at the results of the other 8 horses in the race.

When he was 2nd in the Kentucky Derby - the horses behind him fractured as well. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finished up 17th, 19th, and 20th. The pace was much faster that day when you consider the speed of the track.

However, yesterday, he was cruising while well within himself, on an unpressured lead. The fractions were very reasonable considering the speed of the track.

SOREHOOF

10-28-2007, 07:00 PM

Lawyer Ron had races that would have won this. Just not on this day. Post hurt him, and he seems to lose interest when things don't go his way.

Danzig

10-28-2007, 07:00 PM

i don't know, invasor always showed a way to win, and never got much respect. i'd take him over curlin.
but then, it's all just a mental exercise anyway.

have to say, talented as curlin is, and seemingly special, i almost choked earlier this evening when i read gary west writing that asmussen might get the eclipse.
wouldn't that be just grand.

pgardn

10-28-2007, 07:06 PM

Bernardini only ran in one triple crown race....

And Invasor might have faced better horses than Street Sense in Uruguay.

.... My bad, no sense baiting ARyan since he's surely fixated on a lame Red Sox game.

I forgot about that, he did not go in the Belmont.

Curlin had a full plate and performed wonderfully.
A lot was asked of this horse and he came through.
This animal was definitley not pampered.

Pedigree Ann

10-29-2007, 04:54 AM

Just to add, Lusty Latin ended up running for cheap tags for every Juice guy in the mid atlantic.

Hey, Lusty Latin won stakes races at 5 and 6 in MD. And anybody who remembers that SA Derby knows that his third was what Harvey Pack calls 'a suck-up third' or the TVG guys call 'garbage collecting'. The front-runners were walking to the line and he kept on at his one pace and passed a few of them. Nothing more than that.

Pedigree Ann

10-29-2007, 04:57 AM

Hope he liked mud.

Most South American horses do take to our mud, oddly enough. The consistency of their dirt tracks is different from that of ours, and it may be that the action required works wells on US off-tracks.

Charismatic1

10-29-2007, 05:27 AM

I am no fan of the horse, but I felt that Curlin was probably the best three-year-old of the bunch going into Saturday. However, I didn't think he'd stamp himself as far and away the best horse in the race. His performance was awesome and left no room for excuses.

Having said that, there is no horse I have seen in my 10 years of racing "fanhood" that was as good a classic horse as Invasor. He could win from anywhere regardless of the track, trip, or bias. He had all the tools. The reason he doesn't get the uninhibited respect he deserves is because he didn't burn the stopwatch or win by 10 beautiful lengths like others we have drooled over in the past. Instead, he always showed up. He had tons of talent, but he had the rare intangibles as well. Because of that, the one thing I learned in watching his career is that no matter the situation or the competition, he will always get the job done. So, regardless of how brilliant and incredible I think Curlin's Classic was on Saturday, I firmly believe Invasor would have found a way and joined Tiznow in Classic lore had he stepped onto the Monmouth track Saturday.

As a side note, I may become a very big Curlin fan if he returns as a 4yo. I'd like to find out.