BC: Turf; FMT; Mile (PP's/Odds)

[Kasept]

Turf

10th (4:50) John Deere Breeders' Cup Turf (G1)

1 1/2 Miles (Turf) | Open | 3 Year Olds And Up Stakes | Purse: $3,000,000

1 1 Fri Guy Desormeaux K J Romans Dale 126 LA 50-1
2 2 Red Rocks (IRE) Dettori L Meehan Brian 126 L 7-2
3 3 Better Talk Now Dominguez R A Motion H Graham 126 LA 9-2
4 4 Shamdinan (FR) Leparoux J R Penna Angel Jr 121 L 20-1
5 5 Grand Couturier (GB) Borel C H Ribaudo Robert J 126 L 10-1
6 6 English Channel Velazquez J R Pletcher Todd A 126 LA 5-2
7 7 Dylan Thomas (IRE) Murtagh J P O'Brien Aidan P 126 L 7-5
8 8 Transduction Gold Graham J Glenney John 126 L 30-1


Exacta / Trifecta / Superfecta Daily Double

[Kasept]

Mile

8th (3:20) NetJets Breeders' Cup Mile (G1)

1 Mile (Turf) | Open | 3 Year Olds And Up Stakes | Purse: $2,000,000

1 1 Rebellion (GB) Coa E M Motion H Graham 126 LA 50-1
2 2 Icy Atlantic Decarlo C P Pletcher Todd A 126 LA 30-1
3 3 After Market Solis A Shirreffs John 126 LA 7-2
4 4 Host (CHI) Gomez G K Pletcher Todd A 126 LA 30-1
5 5 Jeremy Dettori L Stoute Sir Michael 126 5-1
6 6 Trippi's Storm Castellano J J Hough Stanley M 126 LA 8-1
7 7 Cosmonaut Leparoux J R Parisel Francois 126 L 15-1
8 8 Kip Deville Velasquez C Dutrow, Jr. R E 126 L 6-1
9 9 Nobiz Like Shobiz Velazquez J R Tagg Barclay 122 LA 8-1
10 10 My Typhoon (IRE) Castro E Mott William I 123 LA 30-1
11 11 Silent Name (JPN) Desormeaux K J Frankel Robert 126 LA 30-1
12 12 Purim Theriot H J II Proctor Thomas F 126 LA 20-1
13 13 Excellent Art (GB) Murtagh J P O'Brien Aidan P 122 FTL 3-1
14 14 Remarkable News (VEN) Dominguez R A Penna Angel Jr 126 L 12-1


Exacta / Trifecta / Superfecta Pick 3 (Races 8-9-10) / Pick 4 (Races 8-9-10-11)

[Kasept]

Filly & Mare Turf

6th (1:55) Emirates Airline Breeders' Cup Filly and Mare Turf (G1)

1 3/8 Miles (Turf) | Fillies and Mares | 3 Year Olds And Up Stakes | Purse: $2,000,000

Prg. # PP Horse Jockey Trainer Wt. Claim $ Equip. Med. ML
1 1 All My Loving (IRE) Smullen P J O'Brien Aidan P 118 Blk-On FTL 15-1
2 2 Honey Ryder Velazquez J R Pletcher Todd A 123 LA 9-2
3 3 Nashoba's Key Talamo J Gaines Carla 123 L 3-1
4 4 Passage of Time (GB) Dominguez R A Cecil Henry 118 7-2
5 5 Wait a While Gomez G K Pletcher Todd A 123 LA 4-1
6 6 Lahudood (GB) Garcia Alan McLaughlin Kiaran P 123 LA 10-1
7 7 Argentina (IRE) Desormeaux K J Frankel Robert 123 LA 12-1
8 8 Timarwa (IRE) Kinane M J Oxx John M 118 20-1
9 9 Danzon Leparoux J R Parisel Francois 123 L 12-1
10 10 Arravale Valdivia J Jr Benson MacDonald 123 L 30-1
11 11 Simply Perfect (GB) Murtagh J P Noseda Jeremy 118 FTL 15-1
12 12 Precious Kitten Bejarano R Frankel Robert 123 LA 30-1

[hockey2315]

Suprised to see Nobiz pre-entered in the mile. . . Is he actually going?

[my miss storm cat]

Jeremy has been sitting on a big win all year...

(Nice avatar, Hockey).

[NoChanceToDance]

Jeremy has been sitting on a big win all year...

(Nice avatar, Hockey).

If the turf is firm he won't be winning. Or at least, i don't see him winning if it's firm.

Really fancy Excellent Art in the mile, just as long as Spencer doesn't ride him. He has been beaten by the beat miler in europe (maybe the world) at the moment this year, a really class horse with so much natural speed and a turn of foot, which is lethal. He acts on firm/heavy, everything seems to come alike to him. If i'm honest i will be shocked if he is beaten in the mile.

Can't see past Dylan Thomas in the turf. He should win, unless the turf gets soft.

I don't actually think the Euros will be winning the filly and mare this year. All My Loving has no chance, can't believe she has been pre entered. Passage Of Time is a nice horse, but it is a tough ask for her i think.

Simply Perfect won't stay the trip, and Timarwa will probably be a bit outclassed. John Oxx is a legend though and wouldn't be sending her without a very good reason.

[brockguy]

Jermey's best race came when the ground was a road at Ascot... I think he'll do well if it is quick

[NoChanceToDance]

Jermey's best race came when the ground was a road at Ascot... I think he'll do well if it is quick

Michael Stoute has always said he is best on a good surface, wasn't there some talk of taking him out at Royal Ascot because of the ground?

[brockguy]

still though, trainers dont always know best..

EDIT- any idea of jock.. Kinane please..

[brockguy]

Champs Elysees is keeping up the family tradition of competing in the BC.. He is interesting..

[my miss storm cat]

still though, trainers dont always know best..

EDIT- any idea of jock.. Kinane please..
Even though he's never won on him (... but been 2nd a few times)... RYAN (please)! :) :cool:

[NoChanceToDance]

still though, trainers dont always know best..

EDIT- any idea of jock.. Kinane please..

Trainers aren't usually too far wrong when it comes down to ground preferences. I'm not convinced the ground was that quick at Ascot. Our ground when described as good to firm would probably be called good in America. Their firm would be our "hard", which we now cannot race on.

I'm hoping Kinane rides Excellent Art. Kinane is due to be Ballydoyle's "main" jockey over there.

MMSC, i'm not sure if Ryan Moore will be making the trip over there. If he does, then he probably will ride him.

[HaloWishingwell]

Anyone know how long SILENT NAME has been in Frankel's barn? He had the lead to midstretch with last year's group.

[Bobby Fischer]

Looking Jeremy over as a longshot for the Mile exotics...

When foreign horses run in America, I like to generalize that they want a furlong or so more in The States.

This guy Jeremy ran in the 8furlong Queen Anne G1 stakes back in June, and he made the lead in the stretch, and was just beaten by a very good horse in Ramonti.
Kind of interesting the racing post mentions in the Queen Anne comments that he is a 7 furlong horse and that he much prefers a firm going. :eek:
Follows the Queen Anne with a solid 3rd in the Grade1 Sussex(Ramonti,Excellent Art) , and then a real clunker going 7furlongs in a Grade1 on Soft going in his last.

a 7 furlong horse maybe I move him up a little here, with a fair amount of class internationally, and maybe if we get a firm Monmouth Turf - maybe he gets another slight upgrade over any Europeans with a soft preference... PLUS a real clunker in the last to throw the hounds off the trail.

Probably a waste, but I may include him on some vertical exotics

[Scav]

Looking Jeremy over as a longshot for the Mile exotics...

When foreign horses run in America, I like to generalize that they want a furlong or so more in The States.

This guy Jeremy ran in the 8furlong Queen Anne G1 stakes back in June, and he made the lead in the stretch, and was just beaten by a very good horse in Ramonti.
Kind of interesting the racing post mentions in the Queen Anne comments that he is a 7 furlong horse and that he much prefers a firm going. :eek:
Follows the Queen Anne with a solid 3rd in the Grade1 Sussex(Ramonti,Excellent Art) , and then a real clunker going 7furlongs in a Grade1 on Soft going in his last.

a 7 furlong horse maybe I move him up a little here, with a fair amount of class internationally, and maybe if we get a firm Monmouth Turf - maybe he gets another slight upgrade over any Europeans with a soft preference... PLUS a real clunker in the last to throw the hounds off the trail.

Probably a waste, but I may include him on some vertical exotics

I actually love the fact that he ran that way last race, people will overlook that it was on a yielding course. All his other races are very competitive, I'm a pretty big fan......

[NoChanceToDance]

Looking Jeremy over as a longshot for the Mile exotics...

When foreign horses run in America, I like to generalize that they want a furlong or so more in The States.

This guy Jeremy ran in the 8furlong Queen Anne G1 stakes back in June, and he made the lead in the stretch, and was just beaten by a very good horse in Ramonti.
Kind of interesting the racing post mentions in the Queen Anne comments that he is a 7 furlong horse and that he much prefers a firm going. :eek:
Follows the Queen Anne with a solid 3rd in the Grade1 Sussex(Ramonti,Excellent Art) , and then a real clunker going 7furlongs in a Grade1 on Soft going in his last.

a 7 furlong horse maybe I move him up a little here, with a fair amount of class internationally, and maybe if we get a firm Monmouth Turf - maybe he gets another slight upgrade over any Europeans with a soft preference... PLUS a real clunker in the last to throw the hounds off the trail.

Probably a waste, but I may include him on some vertical exotics

I can assure you that he doesn't prefer firm ground. Good ground is perfect for him. If they are calling the turf "firm" in America it could be far to jarring for any of our horses in the mile.

I'm not saying Jeremy won't handle it firm, but according to the trainer he is better on good ground.

The joy with Excellent Art is that he seems to enjoy any ground. Has won on good to firm and heavy.

[Bobby Fischer]

I can assure you that he doesn't prefer firm ground. Good ground is perfect for him. If they are calling the turf "firm" in America it could be far to jarring for any of our horses in the mile.

I'm not saying Jeremy won't handle it firm, but according to the trainer he is better on good ground.

The joy with Excellent Art is that he seems to enjoy any ground. Has won on good to firm and heavy.

That makes good sense.

Excellent Art does look very consistent. I would worry about him getting asked early enough to be involved, but Murtagh has a feel for the game and should give him a chance.

[NoChanceToDance]

That makes good sense.

Excellent Art does look very consistent. I would worry about him getting asked early enough to be involved, but Murtagh has a feel for the game and should give him a chance.

What i like about Excellent Art is that he travels so powerfully in his races, and no matter how fast the gallop is in any particular race, his turn of foot can end a race within a few strides. Jamie Spencer has given this horse a couple of dreadful rides this summer (he should have beaten Ramonti last time). He is a hold up horse, so he would need some solid pace in the early stages of the race.

I like Jeremy, but i'm just not sure about his overall class. On all his known form, his run in the Queen Anne does look as if it could have been a bit of a fluke.

Excellent Art has only had four runs thies year and arguably he should have had four wins, all of which were in Gr1 races.

[sirbarton]

In case you haven't found out yet, Frankel took over Silent Name after his last race in July.

[sirbarton]

Anyone know how long SILENT NAME has been in Frankel's barn? He had the lead to midstretch with last year's group.

Oops! I think I messed up my first reply. Frankel took over Silent Name after his last race in July.

[my miss storm cat]

Frankie got the Jeremy mount..... :(

[NoChanceToDance]

Frankie got the Jeremy mount..... :(

I thought about you when i saw that :(

[hockey2315]

Frankie got the Jeremy mount..... :(

What's wrong with Dettori?! That he'll hurt the odds?

[gallant bloom]

we can now
kiss jeremy
goodbye.

[NoChanceToDance]

we can now
kiss jeremy
goodbye.

You said it right there.

How come you're not in Woodbine to see your boy run?

[NoChanceToDance]

What's wrong with Dettori?! That he'll hurt the odds?

Frankie is a dreadful jockey. Probably the most overrated jock in european racing history.

[gallant bloom]

You said it right there.

How come you're not in Woodbine to see your boy run?
because i'm going
to the bc
instead.

i will yell
at dettori
for u.

:D

[gallant bloom]

What's wrong with Dettori?! That he'll hurt the odds?
stupid ppl will
think he has
a better shot
now.

he'll be
off the board.

[NoChanceToDance]

because i'm going
to the bc
instead.

i will yell
at dettori
for u.
:D

Good girl. :D

Make sure you take some pics of the euro runners. Especially Annie Skates in the Juvenile fillies race if you can.

I'd owe you a present if you could do that :)

[NoChanceToDance]

stupid ppl will
think he has
a better shot
now.

he'll be
off the board.

I'm not saying he will be off the board, but having Dettori on his back has certainly dented his chances.

If Frankie comes into the stretch with no chance of winning but a chance of being second or third, he will just give up. Like he did on Blue Ksar the other day.

[gallant bloom]

I'm not saying he will be off the board, but having Dettori on his back has certainly dented his chances.

If Frankie comes into the stretch with no chance of winning but a chance of being second or third, he will just give up. Like he did on Blue Ksar the other day.
did u see
the replay
from milan?

echo of light
could have
won but
he was 3rd.

thanx frankie.

[NoChanceToDance]

did u see
the replay
from milan?

echo of light
could have
won but
he was 3rd.

thanx frankie.

No, i didn't see it, but it doesn't surprise me.

[NoChanceToDance]

I see I am unworthy of a response. Thanks.

Me, Gallant, mmsc and many european racing followers will all agree that Dettori is hugely overrated. He isn't the best when it comes to tactics and compared with a lot of jockeys he is very weak in a finish.

He only cares about winning. Second and third are not good enough to him as he has shown many times in the past. If he has no chance of winning, but still has a chance of hitting the board he will more than likely give up.

People think he's a good jockey because of the media. He gets a lot of media attention, but that doesn't mean he is good.

He has the choice of all the Godolphin horses to ride, and if they have two runners in the same race he will usually choose the 'wrong one', even though he should know the Godolphin horses inside out.

He just isn't very good considering he gets to ride some of the best horses in the world and often gets it all wrong.

[NoChanceToDance]

I was kind of hoping the person who called people stupid would reply although I appreciate the response. I don't really know, nor care if he is overrated. I am under the opinion that jocks mean very little and do more harm than good. I don't see Dettori enough to have an opinion on him.

There are certain jocks over here, as i'm sure there are in America, where as a fan/punter, you know that he/she will give it their all and try their hardest on every horse. Frankie isn't one of these jockeys. He cost one of my friends a nice exacta payout the other day when he stopped riding his mount which cost him second place.

He earns so much money outside racing that he doesn't really care. He doesn't care about travelling to the races any great distance, if he doesn't really want to, he won't. People over here who don't follow racing just think Dettori is a good jock because he is probably the only one they have heard of.

People will remember the magnificent seven he did at Ascot, but he was on by far the best horses in most of those races and got very lucky with some of the trips he got through the races.

I've seen him mess up so many times, whethet it's through arrogance or lack of ability i couldn't be sure, but he isn't the sort of jockey you could depend on to get a winner if you really need one.

[brockguy]

I agree that Frankie isnt the best jock riding in Europe, but at a massive international event like the Breeders Cup, he will be fine. I would personally have preferred Kinane but if Frankie can ride him like he did Red Rocks last year, Ill take that..

[hockey2315]

Can one of you Europeans please rank the big jockeys over there for us?

Thanks. . .

[my miss storm cat]

What's wrong with Dettori?! That he'll hurt the odds?
I just wish they had gone with someone else.

He's not been at his best lately to put it nicely.

I think Jeremy still has a shot and will use him but, well..... I wish they had gone with someone else.

Of course Jeremy is sitting on a big win so maybe he can overcome what i see as a slight disadvantage.

By the way I can't find the replay for the Premio Vittorio di Capua (hint, hint) but if he pulled the same crap as he did on Blue Ksar i just assume forget it.

Too bad..... Echo really had a shot.

Cheers to Linngari. Nice horse...

[NoChanceToDance]

Can one of you Europeans please rank the big jockeys over there for us?

Thanks. . .

Everyone will have their own opinions, so you will get different lists, but my top ten would go something like this.

1. Ryan Moore
2. Mick Kinane
3. Kieren Fallon
4. Kerrin McEvoy
5. Ted Durcan
6. Johnny Murtagh
7. Declan McDonagh
8. Stephane Pasquier
9. Kevin Manning
10. Pat Smullen

[hockey2315]

Dettori's not even in the top 10? What about Soumillon?

[NoChanceToDance]

Dettori's not even in the top 10? What about Soumillon?

Soumillon is rather like dettori, he's a jockey you can't depend on, he gets it wrong so many times. Dettori, soumillon and spencer are all quite similar in my opinion.

[brockguy]

you would enjoy me and my friends almost weekly slagging off of Manning.. He is terrible but has got the ultimate job security..

For me, Id have McEvoy, Fallon, Kinane, Murtagh as the top echelon of Euro (well one is Aussie) jocks

[NoChanceToDance]

you would enjoy me and my friends almost weekly slagging off of Manning.. He is terrible but has got the ultimate job security..

For me, Id have McEvoy, Fallon, Kinane, Murtagh as the top echelon of Euro (well one is Aussie) jocks

Manning isn't an all time fav of mine but he's still get on the top ten list of the top jocks riding in europe. He is so strong in the saddle and nine times out of ten you can be sure you will get a run for your money with his mounts.

He just edges Pat Smullen for me, who in my opinion is a great tactical jockey, but isn't as strong in a finish as some of the others.

Kerrin just has a superb racing brain. You will rarely see him in the wrong position when a race is developing. When you can do that time after time you don't need to be exceptionally strong. In America he'd turn out to be one of the all time greats. America deserves a jock like McEvoy, he's make someone like Gomez look ordinary.

Kinane is just tremendous..... everything.

Murtagh has improved out of all recognition this year, i think. A few years ago he wasn't a fav of mine at all, but i think that can be put down to him going through his drink problem and not really getting along with David Loder while he had a spell in England. This year he has been unstoppable.

Kieren is just Kieren. race fixing or not, you'll never see a more powerful jockey. He could lift horses over the line first. A seriously good horseman.

Ryan looks like he could be the next Kinane, a very quiet lad, just gets on with his job. Racing is his life, he doesn't drink, he doesn't go to clubs and get laid by as many birds as possible. He is 100% focused on his job. Nothing is ever good enough for him. Even after winning the eclipse on Notnowcato he thought he could have done better. Someone with that determination at such a young age is on his way to stardom.

[Kasept]

Lahudood (GB) FM Turf Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.00:14
Nashoba's Key FM Turf/Distaff Santa Anita 5 furlongs 1.00:80
Argentina (IRE) FM Turf Belmont Park 6 furlongs 1.17:04
Honey Ryder FM Turf/Turf Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.03:41
Precious Kitten Mile/FM Turf Keeneland 4 furlongs 48:60
Wait a While FM Turf Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.04:11


Cosmonaut Mile Keeneland 5 furlongs 58:00
After Market Mile Hollywood Park 5 furlongs 1.00:00
Host (CHI) Mile Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.03:41
Icy Atlantic Turf/Mile Belmont Park 4 furlongs 50:71
Purim Mile Keeneland 5 furlongs 59:40
Rabatash Mile Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.01:82
Remarkable News Mile Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.02:71


English Channel Turf Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.03:55
Grand Couturier (GB) Turf Aqueduct 5 furlongs 1.04:03
Shamdinan (FR) Turf Belmont Park 5 furlongs 1.03:60
Transduction Gold Turf Keeneland 5 furlongs 1.01:60

[Scav]

I just got done handicapping the BC Turf and while Dylan Thomas looks extremely solid, I think a horse that could run huge is Shamdinan. In TG terms, he just circled back to his top, which in lightly raced horses often means a move forward. Now his current top is right in the thick of things for 2nd/3rd money but if he explodes, which could happen, he could be a monster payoff. I think the reward is there if he is over 20/1, which is possible since his last two races aren't too impressive, even though his last race at Belmont recieved a "!" notation meaning it is a buried figure and it is a better race then it looks to the public. He is also getting 5lbs. I think all of this adds up to including him in alot of tickets.

Anyone know why Angel Penna took over training on this horse?

[hockey2315]

Grand Courturier is my longshot in that race. . . Maybe I'll play something with Dylan on top and throw Shamdinan and GC underneath. . . I'm not sure about Shammy though. . .

[Scurlogue Champ]

Murtagh makes me want to kill people with some of his rides.

[NoChanceToDance]

Murtagh makes me want to kill people with some of his rides.

That's how i used to feel about him two or three years ago. I saw him give so many bad rides within those two years i lost faith in him as a kockey. This year, however, he has been riding out of his skin. His ride in the E P Taylor the other day was fantastic. Most would have given up and just ridden out for second, but the way he picked Mrs Lindsay up again was brilliant. He is in the form of his life, and so is Dylan Thomas...... which is a great combination.

[Bobby Fischer]

I had Murtagh ranked as maybe the best Euro jockey this year- - until his ride in the Manowar. To his credit(or a greater sin) I couldn't tell 100% that it wasn't a pace ambush to try to take out Sunriver...
Sure glad I didn't bet his horse that day. I know a lot of people wouldn't have put a penny on him, had they known he was going to use it up on the pace like a cheap uncoupled entry. His other recent races here including the Arlington Million day, have been high level.


Ryan Moore caught my eye with his Eclipse victory. I dont care if the trainer came up with the tactics, the execution and timing is what impressed me.

[TheSpyder]

Whose working out at Monmouth? I can't find any information on this and it would seem to me an important fact. Anyone know?

Thanks,
Spyder

[Bobby Fischer]

:)
[/rant]

[hockey2315]

too much handicapping from the ML maker and not enough attention to the betting public:mad: .

He should KNOW that the public wants to bet Nobiz hand-over-fist in the Mile, yet he starts Nobiz at 8-1 while placing Jeremy at 5-1 ??

there odds should be reversed for the morning line!


It isn't his job to be an "expert" handicapper - his job is to set a morning line.

Sure it will even out, but the game is hard enough without the Linesmaker trying to go beyond the betting-public's opinion and into his own handicapping..



Ya so far I don't like some of the linesmaker's odds at all. . .

[ezrabrooks]

Me, Gallant, mmsc and many european racing followers will all agree that Dettori is hugely overrated. He isn't the best when it comes to tactics and compared with a lot of jockeys he is very weak in a finish.

He only cares about winning. Second and third are not good enough to him as he has shown many times in the past. If he has no chance of winning, but still has a chance of hitting the board he will more than likely give up.

People think he's a good jockey because of the media. He gets a lot of media attention, but that doesn't mean he is good.

He has the choice of all the Godolphin horses to ride, and if they have two runners in the same race he will usually choose the 'wrong one', even though he should know the Godolphin horses inside out.

He just isn't very good considering he gets to ride some of the best horses in the world and often gets it all wrong.

NoChance, Enjoy your posts. One queston, if Dettori doesn't like to lose...what is he doing on Kelly's Landing in the Sprint? This horse should be a toss, but I just keep coming back to him..

Ez

[NoChanceToDance]

NoChance, Enjoy your posts. One queston, if Dettori doesn't like to lose...what is he doing on Kelly's Landing in the Sprint? This horse should be a toss, but I just keep coming back to him..

Ez

He had a good victory on him in Dubai, and even i have to say he gave KL a good ride that night in March.

I think he has a very good shot. I think the key to him is being fresh, and he will be fresh for this. My worry is the jockey though, he is very frustrating from a punters point of view. You can never be sure what sort of ride you will get for your money.

[otisotisotis]

my precious kitten
where for art thou wait a while?
the rest go under

[my miss storm cat]

"What an upset! Dylan Thomas goes down to the American English Channel!"

Oh God give me a break. Dylan has had a long year.....

Disgusted.

[Scav]

Kev might get fired for yelling so loud, AT WORK, and then calling me.

[NoChanceToDance]

They shouldn't have run him. I'm sorry, but they shouldn't.

Greed gets the better of a big organisation again!

[Dunbar]

Congrats, Kev. It's fun thinking how thrilled you must be!

--Dunbar

[my miss storm cat]

They shouldn't have run him. I'm sorry, but they shouldn't.

Greed gets the better of a big organisation again!
We disagree a lot but yeah, there were more reasons not to run him than to go ahead with it.....

[NoChanceToDance]

We disagree a lot but yeah, there were more reasons not to run him than to go ahead with it.....

Ground was wrong, long season, he had quite a bit to lose. I'm very disappointed with Coolmore.

[SentToStud]

Is it so bad to lose? I applaud them for running. I wish more horses would run. Why are we as fans of this sport so against horses running? It's not like he had physical issues. It's hard to knock the career he has had. So what he was off the board.I agree. In the days before the Breeders Cup turned racing into ATMs for guys named Dinny, Stamps and Barry, horses often competed when the did not have the best of it. Weight, surface, weather were all part of the sport. I give them credit for running.

[my miss storm cat]

Is it so bad to lose? I applaud them for running. I wish more horses would run. Why are we as fans of this sport so against horses running? It's not like he had physical issues. It's hard to knock the career he has had. So what he was off the board.
No, it's not so bad to lose.

Hey, my favorite horse was Ace who hadn't won since 2004.

Always rooted for him, always played him, and he would humor me and amuse me by having sleepy time halfway through the race(s). Never pissed me off..... it's just how he was. I never minded losing on him.

This though..... he's had a grueling year so hearing what i think are moronic comments about being beaten? Just irritates me. I can't help it.

I played Red Rocks but rooted for Dylan.

Congrats to all who had the winner.

That joke about he's done enough? He really has.....


— — 07Oct07 Lon 12GS G1,772K 9-5 1/12 hd, Youmzain[11/2] 9-5 K Fallon — 128 127
— — 08Sep07 Leo 10GF G1,404K 9-7 1/6 1½L, Duke Of Marmalade[8/15F] 9-0 K Fallon 127 116 126
FULL FIN 21Aug07 Yor 10Gd Cl1 G1,298K 9-5 2/7 1L, Authorized[2/1] 8-11 J Murtagh — 105 128
— — 28Jul07 Asc 12GS Cl1 G1,425K 9-7 1/7 4L, Youmzain[5/4F] 9-7 J Murtagh — 130 131
— — 20Jun07 Asc 10Gd Cl1 G1,211K 9-0 2/6 1¼L, Manduro[2/1] 9-0 C Soumillon — 85 129
— — 27May07 Cur 11GF G1,125K 9-0 2/9 hd, Notnowcato[1/2F] 9-0 J A Heffernan 126 39 127
— — 29Apr07 Lon 11Gd G1,115K 9-2 1/8 2L, Irish Wells[4/9F] 9-2 C Soumillon — 117 125
— — 15Apr07 Cur 10GF L,21K 9-8 1/7 3L, Fracas[8/15F] 9-1 J A Heffernan 126 4 118

I think he's tired now. That sounds stupid, but I do.

[my miss storm cat]

No disgrace in losing.
Agree.

[NoChanceToDance]

Is it so bad to lose? I applaud them for running. I wish more horses would run. Why are we as fans of this sport so against horses running? It's not like he had physical issues. It's hard to knock the career he has had. So what he was off the board.

For an American it probably doesn't seem to bad, but from a european prospective when you knew he was going to struggle it was a dreadful decision to run the horse after having a long season on ground he hates.

We have seen that he's a proper horse, he didn't need to prove anything to us.

I know you thought i was mad saying he wouldn't run, but that was the opinion of many fans over here and we are all gutted.

As soon as the rain came most people said he wouldn't have a chance of winning.

Losing this race will be in the fore of everyone's mind. It has eclipsed his Arc win for me.

[my miss storm cat]

It has eclipsed his Arc win for me.
Don't let it.....

That was stunning. Nothing should ruin a memory of something so stunning.

[Coach Pants]

Maybe it's time for the Euros to get over themselves? Or at the very least don't post today?

[my miss storm cat]

Maybe it's time for the Euros to get over themselves? Or at the very least don't post today?
:D

Am I an honorary Euro?

[NoChanceToDance]

I'm just annoyed. There was no chance of him going to America if he won the Arc (according to Tabor), that was grand, i was happy he was going to sign off with a win. Then all of a sudden he's going to America. Mood? unsure, despite the firm ground that was back then. Definitley going to run in the BC Turf...... mood? Surprised.

Rain f'ing it down over 24 hours. He can't run surely? surely they won't risk him? if they do he has no chance.

He runs.......... (i'm cursing)

I'm annoyed because there was no reason to run. Our best turf horse and he gets stuffed because of a stupid decision.

As a fan, i like watching the horses run, too, but there is a line and in my opinion Coolmore went way over that line.

I can just imagine Aidan saying "in hindsight we shouldn't have run"

Two runs in America, and two huge defeats, he won't get much attention for the american breeding market.

[Coach Pants]

:D

Am I an honorary Euro?
Like Gwyneth Paltrow?

[Coach Pants]

I think Coolmore and Conan O'Brien should be applauded for running him. They were true sportsmen today.

[ArlJim78]

For an American it probably doesn't seem to bad, but from a european prospective when you knew he was going to struggle it was a dreadful decision to run the horse after having a long season on ground he hates.

We have seen that he's a proper horse, he didn't need to prove anything to us.

I know you thought i was mad saying he wouldn't run, but that was the opinion of many fans over here and we are all gutted.

As soon as the rain came most people said he wouldn't have a chance of winning.

Losing this race will be in the fore of everyone's mind. It has eclipsed his Arc win for me.
how would it have been better if he was withdrawn or didn't even come over?
aren't we just talking about pride here? sure he was up against it, but he gave it a shot. i don't see how it diminishes him. there is no precedent for being able to pull off that double.

[NoChanceToDance]

Maybe it's time for the Euros to get over themselves? Or at the very least don't post today?

Maybe i should get over myself. Maybe i'm very upset, like anyone would be when their apparent main chance gets stuffed in a race he had the ability to win in hand.

Yes, i'm probably going OTT, but this has been a very depressing BC for us. Just like it would be for you if a euro wins the classic.

[NoChanceToDance]

how would it have been better if he was withdrawn or didn't even come over?
aren't we just talking about pride here? sure he was up against it, but he gave it a shot. i don't see how it diminishes him. there is no precedent for being able to pull off that double.

He would have at least gone out on a winning note with a great Arc win. He has had a very long season, was there any need to run him? I can't think of a single reason to run him.

You know when you are pretty sure a horse doesn't have a chance you just hope he/she doesn't run (rather like many Americans were thinking with After Market today), it is very disappointing to see him run and get humiliated.

He shouldn't have been sent over there after such a hard season.

But hey, they did..... fair play to them, but i think it was the wrong decision.

[Cannon Shell]

I'm just annoyed. There was no chance of him going to America if he won the Arc (according to Tabor), that was grand, i was happy he was going to sign off with a win. Then all of a sudden he's going to America. Mood? unsure, despite the firm ground that was back then. Definitley going to run in the BC Turf...... mood? Surprised.

Rain f'ing it down over 24 hours. He can't run surely? surely they won't risk him? if they do he has no chance.

He runs.......... (i'm cursing)

I'm annoyed because there was no reason to run. Our best turf horse and he gets stuffed because of a stupid decision.

As a fan, i like watching the horses run, too, but there is a line and in my opinion Coolmore went way over that line.

I can just imagine Aidan saying "in hindsight we shouldn't have run"

Two runs in America, and two huge defeats, he won't get much attention for the american breeding market.
He wasn't getting much attention if he won by 10

[Coach Pants]

Maybe i should get over myself. Maybe i'm very upset, like anyone would be when their apparent main chance gets stuffed in a race he had the ability to win in hand.

Yes, i'm probably going OTT, but this has been a very depressing BC for us. Just like it would be for you if a euro wins the classic.
Yeah I would be so depressed if we got beat by the euros. :rolleyes:

[miraja2]

Maybe i should get over myself. Maybe i'm very upset, like anyone would be when their apparent main chance gets stuffed in a race he had the ability to win in hand.

Yes, i'm probably going OTT, but this has been a very depressing BC for us. Just like it would be for you if a euro wins the classic.
I don't give a crap what continent horses come from, and I don't think most of us do. The classic winner last year wasn't an American horse, and I think the people that had him on their tickets were just as happy as they would have been if he was an "American" horse. Cheering for horses based solely on what contintent they come from doesn't make sense to me.
We are losing our focus here. This was not an American day, or a European day.
It was GPK's day.

[Danzig]

hey kev, who was that we were getting grief from about english channel a few weeks back??? glad the old boy showed them all his heels today.

[Danzig]

He wasn't getting much attention if he won by 10

i was going to say essentially the same thing..

dylan loses nothing in his defeat today, any race fan with an ounce of knowledge would know what he was up against. his arc is still quite a feat, and he's still quite the horse. there should be more like him, run them, let them try!! better than sitting in the barn wondering.

coolmore did just fine, running their top hope in the turf, and trying again in the classic with george. it didn't work out, but it certainly wouldn't work out if you don't run them at all.

besides, everyone still knows about giants causeway coming oh so close, and it has done him a world of good to have tried.
rewards are very small when there is NO risk involved. dylan is still a champ. glad he came over to put on a show.

[NoChanceToDance]

i was going to say essentially the same thing..

dylan loses nothing in his defeat today, any race fan with an ounce of knowledge would know what he was up against. his arc is still quite a feat, and he's still quite the horse. there should be more like him, run them, let them try!! better than sitting in the barn wondering.

coolmore did just fine, running their top hope in the turf, and trying again in the classic with george. it didn't work out, but it certainly wouldn't work out if you don't run them at all.

besides, everyone still knows about giants causeway coming oh so close, and it has done him a world of good to have tried.
rewards are very small when there is NO risk involved. dylan is still a champ. glad he came over to put on a show.

I suppose you're right. I just didn't see any reason for running him. From a general fans point of view it was good to see him run, but for a european Dylan Thomas fan i'm not convinced it was the best thing. Well, i certainly didn't think so.

He had proved all he had to prove, and running here was only an after thought, anyway.

I would have preferred to see him bow out with a win, but you can't have everything.

[GPK]

Kev might get fired for yelling so loud, AT WORK, and then calling me.


I was already at the OTB when I called you. I was able to sneak out early.

[Bobby Fischer]

That makes good sense.

Excellent Art does look very consistent. I would worry about him getting asked early enough to be involved, but Murtagh has a feel for the game and should give him a chance.


dam it murtagh! ,

had the most horse and you are going to wait too late to be involved?

all the jockeys over-reacted to the soft turf and let the quarter go in 115 , no wonder a chump like kip deville wins , while the best hores excellent art is passing him AFTER the wire... :eek: :rolleyes:

[NoChanceToDance]

I don't blame Johnny for the ride on Excellent Art, even though the horse should have won. I'm starting to think that the horse is very quirky, hence the reason why he now has looked unlucky in all of his defeats this season.

The horse didn't look like he wanted to change leads, which made him hang in towards the rail. Murtagh did everything he could to straighten him out, not once, but twice. If the horse had run straight, he wins.

As i say, i've now come to the conclusion that the horse is less than straight forward to ride. Maybe Spencer didn't deserve all the flak he has recieved for some of the rides he has given the horse this year?

If he returns to the track next year i will have to think twice before betting him, even though he does have a huge amount of ability.

Regarding Dylan Thomas - from an American fans point of view it was obviously a good thing that they decided to run him, as he is a horse which you guys haven't seen much. From a european view though it would have been better to scratch him. We knew he wouldn't be winning on turf that soft. That was his ninth run of the year and has been on the go since April. Someone on here said he could run five lengths below his best and still win, whether that is true or not, i'm not sure but he has run at least ten lengths below his best yesterday.

I know quite a few fans of After Market in America were hoping he'd be scratched for the same reasons.... because he didn't have much of a chance of soft turf and i respect their decision not to race the horse, even though, as a fan i would have liked to have seen him.

Yes, it was a very sporting decision from Coolmore to run him, but it must have been a very difficult one. I think they knew deep down he had no chance on that turf after a long, hard season. Fair play to them on making the tough decision, but at the end of the day i think it was the wrong one from a european fans point of view.

[GPK]

I don't give a crap what continent horses come from, and I don't think most of us do. The classic winner last year wasn't an American horse, and I think the people that had him on their tickets were just as happy as they would have been if he was an "American" horse. Cheering for horses based solely on what contintent they come from doesn't make sense to me.
We are losing our focus here. This was not an American day, or a European day.
It was GPK's day.


too kind...

[Crown@club]

Haven't read any part of this thread.

I'd say it has to be one of the worst BC Turf races in history.
2:36 and change. Lucky I was with friends to wake me up when it was time to place bets for the Classic.

[HaloWishingwell]

Days and days of rain contributed to the slow times on the turf.

[brianwspencer]

dylan loses nothing in his defeat today, any race fan with an ounce of knowledge would know what he was up against.

I couldn't agree more. The second the race was over, two things went through my head.

1.) Crap. I have to call Kev and swallow my pride.

2.) Even after that, I still think Dylan Thomas is the best turf horse in the world. Period.

[Crown@club]

I couldn't agree more. The second the race was over, two things went through my head.

1.) Crap. I have to call Kev and swallow my pride.

2.) Even after that, I still think Dylan Thomas is the best turf horse in the world. Period.

Unfortunately they came to us, but EC won't be going to them. LOVE IT!

[Coach Pants]

2.) Even after that, I still think Dylan Thomas is the best turf horse in the world. Period.
Must be a piss poor year for turf horses.

[Crown@club]

Must be a piss poor year for turf horses.

I would definitely agree with this statement.

[Bobby Fischer]

What race were you watching? He was never going by the winner. At what point does someone look in the mirror, before blaming a jock?

Why in the world would I "look in the mirror" ??

I said somewhere on page 1 or page 2 something about EA being consistent, but Murtagh would have to watch about being too late.

If anything I should be looking at more races at this moment if I can continue to accurately predict subtleties.

I shouldn't even reply to this or share my thoughts. The internet is a place for witty/smartass remarks, not the finer points (or even obvious generalities) of racing!

In the actual race, a grade 2 or grade 3 animal wins, and Murtagh happened to have the most horse.

I don't even like Excellent Art.

I have to "look in the mirror" because I happen to be able to see when a jockey had a ton of horse and made a last-of-all run to come up short?

It is CLEARLY evident that the soft going caused the jockeys to adjust in terms of the pace and timing.
The race was totally changed. A grade 2 or 3 level horse won because he was up near the very slow pace and could handle the surface.

I couldn't even see the gallop out, but it sure seemed like EA was going to fly by him in a few strides.. Did Excellent Art suddenly pull up? Did Kip Deville suddenly bolt or something to prevent this? Honestly I can't tell on the replay and it has little if anything to do with what was evident between the gate and the wire.

[Bobby Fischer]

I don't blame Johnny for the ride on Excellent Art, even though the horse should have won. I'm starting to think that the horse is very quirky, hence the reason why he now has looked unlucky in all of his defeats this season.

The horse didn't look like he wanted to change leads, which made him hang in towards the rail. Murtagh did everything he could to straighten him out, not once, but twice. If the horse had run straight, he wins.

As i say, i've now come to the conclusion that the horse is less than straight forward to ride. Maybe Spencer didn't deserve all the flak he has recieved for some of the rides he has given the horse this year?

If he returns to the track next year i will have to think twice before betting him, even though he does have a huge amount of ability.

Regarding Dylan Thomas - from an American fans point of view it was obviously a good thing that they decided to run him, as he is a horse which you guys haven't seen much. From a european view though it would have been better to scratch him. We knew he wouldn't be winning on turf that soft. That was his ninth run of the year and has been on the go since April. Someone on here said he could run five lengths below his best and still win, whether that is true or not, i'm not sure but he has run at least ten lengths below his best yesterday.

I know quite a few fans of After Market in America were hoping he'd be scratched for the same reasons.... because he didn't have much of a chance of soft turf and i respect their decision not to race the horse, even though, as a fan i would have liked to have seen him.

Yes, it was a very sporting decision from Coolmore to run him, but it must have been a very difficult one. I think they knew deep down he had no chance on that turf after a long, hard season. Fair play to them on making the tough decision, but at the end of the day i think it was the wrong one from a european fans point of view.


good run down

It isn't easy to ship to another country and win at their game - no matter how good you are.

English Channel is the best at being relatively forwardly placed and using an explosive kick. He has basically been in top form , his only loss in the past 3 or 4 was when Trippi's Storm softened him up for Grand Coutier to run a year-best effort and a perfect late run. EC still ran big in that Sworddancer.
The lack of pace and the running styles of Dylan Thomas and English Channel set it up for English Channel.

If EC shipped to England next month in a full field , he probably finishes out of the trifecta. It just isn't easy to ship and change styles and adapt.
Doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other. EC is the best 11-12 furlong American turf horse. Dylan Thomas won the Arc which speaks for itself.

[Danzig]

english channel announced as going to hurricane hall. no stud fee as yet.
ins't that where bellamy road stands?

[Bobby Fischer]

english channel announced as going to hurricane hall. no stud fee as yet.
ins't that where bellamy road stands?

Do you think EC will make a good sire ?

[NoChanceToDance]

Do you think EC will make a good sire ?

I'm not saying he won't be a good stallion, but it's likely that his fee will be overpriced through his win at the BC.

As a good friend of mine said the other day. The only thing Dylan Thomas' defeat has done is probably push EC up from $10k to closer to $20k. That is probably true.

I'm not too familiar with his pedigree so i don't know whether he is dirt bred but better on turf, or whether he is a proper turf bred horse. If it's the later he could really struggle. I doubt the breeders in europe will be falling over themselves to use him.

[brianwspencer]

I'm not saying he won't be a good stallion, but it's likely that his fee will be overpriced through his win at the BC.

As a good friend of mine said the other day. The only thing Dylan Thomas' defeat has done is probably push EC up from $10k to closer to $20k. That is probably true.

I'm not too familiar with his pedigree so i don't know whether he is dirt bred but better on turf, or whether he is a proper turf bred horse. If it's the later he could really struggle. I doubt the breeders in europe will be falling over themselves to use him.

He's pretty well bred for turf. I'm hardly an expert, but Smart Strikes have had some good success running on turf over here and obviously have handled dirt as well given the recent rash of graded stakes winners from that guy.

EC's female family looks pretty green. His broodmare sire is Theatrical, and the same mare (Committed) that produced EC's dam also produced the very solid turf horse Hap and was a champion runner on the grass.

What the hell do I know? It looks pretty turfy to me, but it seems that there could be some solid dirt potential, especially with the advent of synthetic surfaces hosting traditionally "dirt" races.

[NoChanceToDance]

He's pretty well bred for turf. I'm hardly an expert, but Smart Strikes have had some good success running on turf over here and obviously have handled dirt as well given the recent rash of graded stakes winners from that guy.

EC's female family looks pretty green. His broodmare sire is Theatrical, and the same mare (Committed) that produced EC's dam also produced the very solid turf horse Hap and was a champion runner on the grass.

What the hell do I know? It looks pretty turfy to me, but it seems that there could be some solid dirt potential, especially with the advent of synthetic surfaces hosting traditionally "dirt" races.

Well from what i have been reading, Smart Strike has had a good year (EC apart). If they don't price him too high, breeders might really like him in his first season just to get through to Smart Strike. That said, it doesn't always work like that. Over here, Cape Cross has been getting very good mares for the past two or three years, even though Green Desert is cheaper himself, i believe. No doubt the mighty Ouija Board has something to do with that, though.

My guess is that his fee will have rocketed from winning the BC turf.

[GPK]

They need to send Megahartz to EC next year. Will be the smallest race horse ever ...13 hands maybe:D

[Danzig]

Do you think EC will make a good sire ?

no

[Cannon Shell]

Do you think EC will make a good sire ?
I would be skeptical of his chances and he will have to be really good considering where he will be standing.

[GPK]

no
Why is that Deb?

[Danzig]

Why is that Deb?

turf horses are always up against it in this country. then there's the farm he'll be standing. also just the incredible amount of competition out there. you have got to have plenty of support for a stallion to make it, will he have that? odds are against him being a success. it's tough, and in ky is that much tougher--and at a pretty new farm as well. where will his mares come from? how many have they got to support him? who is in the syndicate? the fact that he's going there i feel speaks volumes about demand for his services.

[Cannon Shell]

turf horses are always up against it in this country. then there's the farm he'll be standing. also just the incredible amount of competition out there. you have got to have plenty of support for a stallion to make it, will he have that? odds are against him being a success. it's tough, and in ky is that much tougher--and at a pretty new farm as well. where will his mares come from? how many have they got to support him? who is in the syndicate? the fact that he's going there i feel speaks volumes about demand for his services.
Good points and he was small which does not help. 1 1/2 turf horses do not usually do great here.

[Scav]

Why is that Deb?

Your boy's new home doesn't even have a website. You better book a ticket to Korea so you can go see him in a couple years.

[GPK]

Your boy's new home doesn't even have a website. You better book a ticket to Korea so you can go see him in a couple years.


I know...I was checking it out last night. They got Bellamy Road and Artie Hang...I mean Schiller showing up there. Bootleg...

[Danzig]

Good points and he was small which does not help. 1 1/2 turf horses do not usually do great here.

he needs to have horses do well on other than turf. and of course smart strike has had that this year. definitely can get anything with him.
but that's the daddy. whole new ball game with the boys, and we all know that not all sires of good racehorses become sires of sires.

[LARHAGE]

If I was looking to breed a turf star I would MUCH rather breed to Shakespeare, he was a freak, he could win at a mile and a mile and a half, much, much better looking horse as well.:)

[NTamm1215]

If I was looking to breed a turf star I would MUCH rather breed to Shakespeare, he was a freak, he could win at a mile and a mile and a half, much, much better looking horse as well.:)

You wouldn't be dissuaded by Shakespeare's numerous health problems?

I would.

NT

[Danzig]

You wouldn't be dissuaded by Shakespeare's numerous health problems?

I would.

NT

i would as well.
it's not that i don't think english channel CAN be a good sire, it's whether he'll get the chance. his is well bred, and his sire has shown he can get them short to long, dirt and turf. but with english channel being turf both top and bottom, he won't get as much attention from commercial breeders as some other smart strikes would.
if you're searching for a route turfer, he's one to go to. sound as a bell, and a runner and champion. you could certainly do worse!!

[LARHAGE]

You wouldn't be dissuaded by Shakespeare's numerous health problems?

I would.

NT

No I wouldn't, he had tendon problems which ANY horse can sufferfrom, he's a big beautiful specimen and he showed he was very versatile in winning a Grade 1 in both a mile and a route, in spectacular fashion. I would be more wary of getting a shrimpy little hot head from English Channel.